Thread:Nausiated/@comment-3406131-20161122175750/@comment-3406131-20161122214339

Nausiated wrote: Yeah, I am leaning more toward Newton being the villain of the two. He's quite the scumbag. Who could blame us...

Nausiated wrote: To clarify on the "Beast" point, as I understand it, the Beast is apparently a mythical creature that the Hand worships. As far as Hydra worshiping the Beast, probably not so much anymore if ever. As I understand it (and I could be wrong) Strucker and Hydra cut direct ties with the Hand after World War II. But I could be wrong. (Again, this might have been something that was only mentioned in an old handbook somewhere). Yes, my bad, the Hand worship the Beast. "The Beast" for Hydra would likely be an alias. I think you do it in English but unsure, but in French, the Beast is something what left and far-left activists calls Nazism and Fascism (that and "The Brown Plague", in reference to the SA, in reference to the Fascist Black Shirts).

Nausiated wrote: I'm wondering if the Spear the same object as the Spear of Destiny. That would make some sense considering the Nazi connection. Which.. Bare with me here.. has some significant ties in Biblical mythology as well as World War II era conspiracy theories and all of that has been tied into the Marvel Universe.

So, I'm wondering.... With the possible connections between Hydra and the Brotherhood of the Spear... and the by-proxy connection with the Nazis.. I wonder if the Spear of Destiny is also the same Spear originally used by the Brotherhood of the Spear? I thought about it (I like the stories around it, such as Longinus being the first vampire after drinking Christ's blood, or that the Lance is one of those items who grants victory to people, but is always lost or stolen at their height, causing their fall). I think I had rejected that idea because the Spear was in the East, while Longinus' lance started from Palestine/Israel/Judea, then to Europe, but we don't know much about it. Keeping that in a talk page would be interesting, but I'd rather make no hypothesis without at least a clear hint (so not something that clear, but something more than our sole hypothesis).

Nausiated wrote: The origin of the Hand is allegedly four billion years ago.
 * Creation of the Brotherhoods of the SHIELD and Spear (Egyptian times)
 * The Hand is Formed
 * There's also an off-shoot of the Hand called the True Believers that first appeared in Amazing Spider-Man #421. I doubt they really tie into all of this but it's worth a look investigating.
 * Hydra is formed (Early 1941)
 * Hydra and the Hand collude together and part ways (1941ish)
 * Hydra continues to operate independently throughout the war. Slowly starts to operate independently of the Nazi party. Becomes full independent post 1945 after the death of Hitler.
 * The war between the Brotherhood of the Shield (Mid 1950s)
 * Da Vinci forms the Great Wheel (Late 50s)
 * Strucker renews Hydra
 * Fury forms SHIELD (by 1966 at the latest)
 * Leviathan is formed
 * This also ties in the Hand, and the Zodiac Cartel
 * S.H.I.E.L.D. and Hydra clash with each other over the convening decades, all part of Fury's grand manipulations. Hydra is led to believe it formed S.H.I.E.L.D. in secret.
 * Modern Age of Heroes starts
 * S.H.I.E.L.D. goes public, appearing to be a new organization designed to combat the "new" Hydra.

Nausiated wrote: I think maybe what we need to do is plot a timeline out based on all the pre-modern age appearances of all of the affected organizations. Good idea. Do you have a good tool on internet for it ? (I had one decade ago when I played an online roleplay game)

You've inserted my question in your answer (and so possibly lost it): "Talking about, I'll need your expertise as a Hydra/S.H.I.E.L.D. expert and as an American to recognize some characters that might be useful (presumably more for Shield than for Spear)."

Another thing: According to Secret Warriors #1, ancient Hydra stopped to appears in records during the Renaissance. It would be interesting to find the cause (if published), or (still if published) when the Last Caliphate was hidden (before or after that disappearance).

I will do a re-run of the S.H.I.E.L.D. series, I think I let some (major) events slip through while looking for key events.

The page is now on the wikia, with a proper chapterization.

The Hydra page mentions the Catharits as being early Hydra. But no correct reference. I'll follow the Thule Society for a bit.