Board Thread:Questions and Answers/@comment-61022-20160330220251/@comment-2204174-20160406131728

Ben 1,000,911 wrote: Nausiated wrote:

Now you're comparing two different issues based on our standpoint regarding what the handbook says and if it is a mistake or not: The events of Ultimate End, and the facts pertaining to the Susan von Doom explanation.

With the Sue von Doom situation, the handbook says it is the 616 version. If it were up to me, I'd go strictly with the handbook and follow that until something gets official stated in story to correct what Brevoort and Hickman state is in error. Frankly, from a story telling perspective, I think it would have been more insidious if Doom did steal Reed's family... But I digress... The two writers state otherwise I'm willing to concede to the fact provided we include notes clarifying the apparent error and the appropriate references (including a reference to the handbook, and links to Brevoorts tumblr answer) be added to the pages.

Because at the end of the day, that's what we need to be doing when stating facts: providing a reference.

Where the Ultimate End storyline differs from the Sue von Doom (And why we're going with what the handbook says) is because the writer in question (Bendis) has not (as yet) stated otherwise, nor has there been any printed material since the end of Secret Wars (to our collective knowledge) that suggests otherwise. Ergo, we go with the most reliable source. Which is... wait for it... The handbook.

Which the handbook provides the best explanation as well, because it explains ALL of the various continuity glitches. Which looks better than plopping it in someone's profile and writing "Somehow so-and-so is brought back to life" or "somehow so-and-so is wearing THIS costume"

I get what you're trying to do: You want this to BE the 616 and 1610 characters. But unfortunately, you have to take a look at the grander scheme of things and accept the facts.

You said it yourself you've only been following Marvel since spring 2014. With all due respect while that pretty well keeps you informed on what is presently going on, that puts you very much out of the loop on how the fiction normally operates. If you take a look at my posts earlier in the thread I go into quite a bit of detail explaining why it's an alternate reality, what supports that position, and the fact that EVEN if down the road there is some kind of explanation that it was the 616 and 1610 characters we would STILL NEED to create separate profiles for all of these characters. My position is coming from 25+ years of seriously reading Marvel Comics (I've been reading comics for 30 years all told) as well as going back and reading a large chunk of the 77 years of Marvel continuity.

I don't say this in a "look at how much longer I've been at this" to gloat or anything. I'm just saying that when you are that deeply entrenched in the fiction you can see the larger picture when it comes to these sort of things. You see patterns that not only the writers make, but how the handbooks also choose to interpret them, what things are reinforced, what's tweaked, what's tossed away. There's a consistency to it. Okay I'm mostly arguing the Ultimate End thing, but for the Invisible Woman bit: I believe there was a part in Secret Wars where Doom said that he found Sue from a dimension where Reed Richards never existed. That's why I'm arguing that the Handbook was wrong in that respect, and another respect where earlier in this thread someone said there was an official statement saying that the handbook was wrong.


 * semi-spoiler for Standoff*

Now, I do not see why more subject pages needed to be added for the characters' tenures in Ultimate End if they are the original counterparts. This is slightly like House of M, yes, but it isn't. They have not been merged with people from alternate realities. So if they are the originals, it is just a common case of memory altering which I assume will be done to a lesser extent for Standoff characters. You would not make another page for "Jim", as in Baron Zemo's Standoff character, would you?


 * end spoiler*

And what do you mean I want it to be them? I don't want anything. This is a controversial comics event that will be resolved no matter what I or any of you want. So I don't want anything because we will eventually have an answer I hope. I just believe that the characters ARE them.

Level with me here, even though it may sound a little unprofessional: this is a comic book. Right? This mini-series has the same people that the common reader is used to in the regular comic titles. Though they may all be different characters with the exact same personalities and histories when their memories are restored and etc, that is unlikely. Why? The common reader will not think of that. Because the writer did not explain that in a prologue or later story or anything. So it is assumed that this is all one and the same by the common reader, and should be. It is very elaborate to make alternate counterparts of the 616 and 1610 characters in this way. And I mean Secret Wars is elaborate to an extent, but not in the theory that the same people were created again as alternate counterparts and then all killed off ruining the point of the mini-series. Even if the characters don't remember Secret Wars, they would not ALL die after confronting Doom. The 1610 ones would, but the 616 ones would later live to tell the tale. Does this make any sense to you Nausiated? It makes sense in my head and I'm not always the best at explaining things I'm thinking about.

Also: OKAY. When I said I started in 2014, that doesn't mean I haven't read any comics BEFORE 2014. That's just when I started reading them weekly rather than old Spider-Man trade paperbacks and of events from the last decade. I have read material spanning from Marvel Comics #1 to what came out last week man. I own a LOT of material. I'm NOT an amateur or whatever you assumed I meant from that comment. I merely pointed out that you have a bit more time spent on this than me, but that doesn't mean I'm not nearly caught up. So don't say that. I've read all the big events, from Kree-Skrull War to Infinity Gauntlet, and in this century I own all the "Events of the Year" from Disassembled to Secret Wars.

To add on to his comment, if they weren't actually Earth-616 and Earth-1610, then why does the Battleworld map say 20b. Manhattan-Earth-616 and 20c. Manhattan-Earth-1610? Why couldn't they use another reality number like Earth-1000000 or etc.? Why does Secret Wars-Official Guide to the Multiverse say: "Reality-1610 was destroyed in this final incursion with Reality-616, though some parts of both were salvaged by an all-powerful Dr. Doom-616 when he created Battleworld from Multiversal remnants; some Earth-1610 characters were scattered across Battleworld's domains."?

And to extend my point, how come we consider the Heroes Reborn heroes to be from Earth-616? So, Franklin Richards created a pocket universe where everyone was reborn when everybody died in the battle against Onslaught. In the Marvel Wiki, it says: '''Following the apparent "deaths" of the Avengers and the Fantastic Four during the Onslaught crisis, the heroes suddenly re-appeared on Counter-Earth, reliving their lives in new, different ways, oblivious to their pasts. They had been transported into a pocket universe by Franklin Richards, the near-omnipotent son of Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman."''' Another example would be the Onslaught Reborn storyline, which in this case, following M-Day, Franklin Richards created another reality which had a similar history to Earth-616, but we still consider it to be Earth-616. And in Secret Wars, everybody (in Earth-616 and Earth-1610) basically died in the incursions and reborn in two different domains (or in the case of the Thors, Doomgard) Battleworld (Earth-15133), reliving their lives in new, different ways, and they were oblivious to their pasts as well, only this time it was from an omnipotent Doctor Doom.

And why does the reality designation of Earth-61610 seemingly similar to Earth-616 and Earth-1610?

All the information that the pro-Earth-61610 guys are using is the recent handbook, while I used the Battleworld map, two handbooks, evidence from the Ultimate End titles to back up my explanation, previous events such as Heroes Reborn and Onslaught Reborn to back up my explanation.

You guys say: "Oh, Captain America died in Cataclysm, Iron Man is wearing his old armor, and different characters such as Emma Frost are wearing an old costume." But I remember a time where on the Miguel O'Hara page, when I mentioned how Max Borne died in a clash with Chameleon 2211, and he was in Spider-Verse unexpectedly, you guys were like "Oh probably he was resurrected in his universe, that's how he was in Spider-Verse." And multiple characters had their costumes prior to All-New All-Different Marvel Now! such as Quicksilver, Doc Green, Hulk (Earth-1610), Angel (in his Black Vortex form) (Old Man Logan), Captain America (Sam Wilson), Iron Man (Tony Stark) (see Ultimate End #1), Shang-Chi, Thing (Earth-1610) (in his energy form), Storm (Earth-616), Magik, Hawkeye of both realities, and etc.