Board Thread:Questions and Answers/@comment-61022-20160330220251/@comment-61022-20160401170952

Pokemonmewtwos wrote: Let me tell you guys my reasoning for why these characters are their Earth-1610 and Earth-616 counterparts.

Like I said before, the Handbook clearly said ""Originally separate domains, one similar to Earth-616 ruled by Iron Man (Tony Stark) and the other similar to Earth-1610 ruled by Nick Fury, the two accidentally merged when the latter's Tony Stark accidentally agitated a rip in reality."

This clearly states separate domains, not realities. And before this merged domain was even formed, it was two separate domains that were remnants of two different realities that are like Earth-616 and Earth-1610. I agree with ADour's analogy, it doesn't make sense if you take taking a bunch of people from France and a buch of people from Spain and mixing them together doesn't make them from "Spance."

... That is some circular logic you have going on here... The handbook points out that each domain is a fragment of a different reality. Each domain has a reality number assigned to them. Egyptia is a domain (has a reality index) X-Topia is a domain (has a reality index) Dysopita is a domain (has a reality index) and so on. Ergo, even Earth-61610 was comprised of two different domains that were merged, the fact remains is that domains are all separate realities. Those two domains merged and since Secret Wars ended still exists as a merged reality.

The fact of the matter is, even if they were Earth-616 and Earth-1610, they were merged. Earth-616 still exists, Earth-1610 very likely still exists (you think they're going to not pull a 10th or 20th anniversary revival down the road? Anytime Marvel can pull out some nostalga they'll revisit something) and Earth-61610 exists post Secret Wars.

I'm not debating that these are two different realities. They are but they have been MERGED. If you go through the examples I provided, all those who exist in a merged reality that were there at the point of merger, they belong to that reality. That's the point I am trying to make.

The Thundra example is a perfect example of this. Femazon and Machus merged into a single reality. We still consider Thundra and Makhizmo as belonging to their original realities because (1) Thundra was shunted back to Earth-616 at the end of that story and Mahkizmo died prior to the merger and reconstituted later.

That said, using that as an example, if you had a character that existed on Femazon before it merged with Machus they would have two existing versions of themselves. (1) The one from the unmerged reality and (2) the one from the merged reality.

That said the "similar" Earth-616 and Earth-1610 characters existed as separate counterparts. However when their domains were merged into a single reality, you now have two counterparts. One from the Pre-Merger and one from the Post-Merger.

The two version exist independent of one another.

That's the point I am trying to make.

At the point of Ultimate End, they exist in the merged domain of Earth-61610. That reality endures after the fact, still merged. All of the characters who were present on the two separate realities became divergent versions when the realities merged.

The fact that they have revisited Earth-61610 in Contest of Champions suggests that they will likely revisit a merged reality between realities similar to 616 and 1610 in the future. Just like they did with the House of M. Ergo, yes, making a distinction and classifying all these characters as Earth-61610 makes the most sense strictly for the purposes.

There is precedence for it. It's been demonstrated multiple times.

Pokemonmewtwos wrote: Besides, if these characters are fake versions of those of Earth-1610 and Earth-616, how come there's not even a fake version of the Maker, or a fake version of the Thor Odinsons of Earth-1610 and Earth-616? And how come there is no version of Spider-Girl (Arana) in the Kingdom of Manhattan? How come the Guardians of the Galaxy haven't been shown in Ultimate End. That is because they are the true versions of themselves. The Maker survived the incursion of both realities, Thor and Spider-Girl ended up in Doomgard and Arachnia respectively, and the Guardians wee in Knowhere.

Exclusion doesn't really prove your point. How many characters in each respective reality are there? Hundreds. It was a five issue run and they crammed in as many characters as possible. Those characters not being there doesn't mean that they were not present in that domain, they might have been present somewhere else.

You could also argue that there was no Silver Surfer.. or countless other characters... or how about all the super-villains that exist on both worlds that are decidedly absent during the entire story?

You're also overlooking the glaring continuity glitches. Why isn't Iron Man wearing his Post-Axix armor? Why is Ultimate Captain America alive again when he stated as having died during Cataclysm?

Pokemonmewtwos wrote: We have seen Doom use his omnipotent power to destroy entire domains (via the Thor Corps) and change reality with a snap of his fingers (as seen in New Attlian) throught the Secret Wars titles. Battleworld does not operate like the Multiverse because Battleworld is only a patchwork planet composed of the remains of realities, while the Multiverse is collection of alternate universes which share a universal hierarchy. '''The Map of Battleworld even lists these two parts of the Kingdom of Manhattan as 20b. Manhattan-Earth-616 and 20c. Manhattan-Earth-1610.'''

Which again, going back to my point, it doesn't matter what those realities were before they were merged. The fact of the matter is that they ARE merged and continue to exist somewhere in the multiverse as a merged reality.

Pokemonmewtwos wrote: Even Miles Morales says in Ultimate End #5, "This is not the way the world is supposed to be. this wasn't the way the world was created. This -- this is a patchwork quilt of madness so madness can rule over it. The world you are living in now -- it was constructed using cosmic forces way beyond us. This isn't what New York is. Our dimensions were -- they were thrown on top of each other on purpose. We didn't do this. Man didn't do this. This was done to us. This is a zoo. A prison. This is a circus of -- terror and confusion built specifically to torture and punish everyone who has ever crossed its maker. And the real punishment is: ignorance. You would know if the world was ever different. You -- you were all put here to specifically to beat each other... to stomp on each other... to murder each other. Everyone here... We, all of us, have one enemy in common and he finally found a way to get at all of us. Miles here is acknowledging that this mixed domain is indeed the remains of his own native reality and Earth-616. If he said, "Your dimensions...", then we can accept that these two domains were composed of realities that were a variant. But he said, "Our dimensions..."

Also keeping in mind that Miles Morales is a teenager who has no background in the nature of reality, yeah, he sounds like quite the expect on the subject.

Also Miles appears near the end of the entire run. Just because he thinks this is his home reality does not make it so. He ended up in the middle of a brawl between heroes that he is familiar with. Doesn't mean they are from the same reality.

Pokemonmewtwos wrote: Even the writers of Ultimate End acknowledged that they were going to end the Ultimate Universe throughout this event. Even the Solicit Synoposis for each of the issues says something that confirms that 20c is indeed Earth-1610's remains. For example, in issue #1:

• MILES MORALES and the rest of the heroes of the ULTIMATE U face final extinction

• As the end of their world becomes inevitable, will the heroes’ heartbreaking sacrifices make any difference?

• The dramatic end of an era begins here!

Then in Issue #5,

ULTIMATE NO MORE!

• 2000 – 2015

Which is hype to push the series, isn't clarified in story or in the handbook. So that is out of our prevue. This Wiki bases the "facts" (as they are) based on what's published in story, not by promotional material, and not by what is said in interviews.

Pokemonmewtwos wrote: And also, if these 20c characters wee not Earth-1610, why haven't the real characters from Earth-1610 have shown up besides Miles Morales, the Maker, Ganke Lee, Bombshell, and Miles' parents? A more likely explanation is that they were killed during the events of Ultimate End.

Just because they are currently not publishing the Ultimate Universe doesn't mean it no longer exists. They said the Age of Apocalypse (Earth-295) was destroyed for good at the end of the original Age of Apocalypse run, yet it's come back multiple times in the 20 years since its been published.

Perhaps the real reason they are not "with Miles" is because the Ultimate Universe actually still exists out there somewhere.

Secret Wars ends with Reed Richards rebuilding the multiverse. So why wouldn't he recreate the Ultimate universe?

Miles being active on Earth-616 is not exclusive to him either. There are other characters from elsewhere in the multiverse on Earth-616 right now. Just because other Ultimate characters haven't been seen on Earth-616 doesn't mean they can't or won't show up either.

Pokemonmewtwos wrote: Besides, if you guys are going to use Tony Stark (616) (Earth-61610) and Tony Stark (1610) (Earth-61610), you guys are still acknowledging the fact that they are belonging in Earth-616 and Earth-1610 because you are simply using the reality numbers to distinguish who's who by saying "Oh, he's from the 616 part of the domain and this guy is from the 1610 part of the domain."

Yeah, it's for organizational purposes for the lack of a better descriptor, and to not bog down the wiki with needless TRNs.

Again, I think you fail to see the point I am trying to make.

I'm not saying that the events of Ultimate End don't belong in the profiles of Earth-616 and Earth-1610 characters. The fact is THAT REMAINS TO BE SPECIFIED, in print. In an actual comic book, or a handbook.

What is true about ONE character does not necessarily apply to the rest of the characters appearing therein (Miles Morales being the best example, considering I shot holes in all your positions).

What is known, is that AFTER the merger there is a distinct reality. Earth-61610. Until there is a clear explanation as to how Ultimate End affected each individual Earth-616 and Earth-1610 character that may or may not have actually appeared in that run, profiles about these characters should be entered in an Earth-61610 profile.

That's not saying that this should not be explained in the base profiles, however it should take an approach akin to the Handbooks when approaching the issue of Secret Wars.

If you go back and read profiles of characters in that handbook, particularly the entry for Ghost Rider, you'll note that they don't claim that the 616 Ghost Rider was also the same one in Ghost Racers. They put a footnote at the end of the profile stating it MIGHT have been him in Ghost Racers.

So until they clarify otherwise, Earth-61610 is logical place to put all that stuff because the identities of those characters has been left ambiguous.