Thread:Nausiated/@comment-3406131-20161122175750/@comment-61022-20161122205544

Undoniel wrote: Oh yes, I intend to message you about it, but completely forgot, my bad. Wouldn't be surprised Newton to be also a Scientist Supreme, if that piece of shit (I'm a pro-da Vinci) managed to arise as a Sorcerer Supreme.

Yeah, I am leaning more toward Newton being the villain of the two. He's quite the scumbag.


 * mentions the Hand being 4 billion years old. The Hydra page have those elements but they are "In prehuman time, a cabal of immortal hooded reptoids came to Earth, planning to start a legacy of evil." Was it you who added that (and if so, have you more explanation)?

I did not add anything about hooded reptoids. I can't think of anywhere in story that might have been mentioned. However, I wouldn't be surprised if this is something mentioned in older versions of the Official Handbook (the '82 or '85 editions). Which would be interesting to consider. I'll have to take a look into it..

Because:
 * There's no hooded reptoids from the past in the issue, but Hand zombi ninjas in the present.
 * The explanation in the comics is for the Hand.
 * The Hand is called the Beast, but we know Hydra is as well.

To clarify on the "Beast" point, as I understand it, the Beast is apparently a mythical creature that the Hand worships. As far as Hydra worshiping the Beast, probably not so much anymore if ever. As I understand it (and I could be wrong) Strucker and Hydra cut direct ties with the Hand after World War II. But I could be wrong. (Again, this might have been something that was only mentioned in an old handbook somewhere).


 * In Nostradamus' premonitions in, it is mentioned that Spear falls to the Beast, we see Hirohito, we see Nazis finding the Spear of Imhotep. So should we consider it is the Brotherhood of the Spear (or an ancient Hydra) that falls to the Nazi Hydra (or to the Hand, but it's Nazi that we see taking the spear), or only the Spear (object).

I'm wondering if the Spear the same object as the Spear of Destiny. That would make some sense considering the Nazi connection. Which.. Bare with me here.. has some significant ties in Biblical mythology as well as World War II era conspiracy theories and all of that has been tied into the Marvel Universe.

Real world stuff first:

If you're not familiar with the Spear of Destiny, it's also known as the Holy Lance. In the Bible this spear was used to pierce Jesus Christ during his crucifixion.

Like anything in the Bible, how much of this is fact or mythology is anyone's guess. Regardless of the historical legitimacy or ones stance on religion, to Christians the Spear of Destiny is a holy relic. Real or not, there are pieces of *a* spear that various groups claim are part of *the* spear. One such portion of the supposed Spear was in Austria and... Dun dun dun.. went missing during World War II. It was recovered by General Patton and returned to Austria after the war.

This is where myth, lore, Nazi Germany, and wacky conspiracy theories all come into play.

The Spear of Destiny was featured in the Wagner play Parisfal. Adolf Hitler was apparently a huge fan of Wagner. Trevor Ravenscroft, a conspiracy theorist, wrote a book in 1973 claiming that Hitler started World War II because he coveted the Spear and believed it had magical powers (or something?) and all sorts of unsupported nonsense including a curse that whoever loses the Spear dies (the only "credible" evidence of this is that Hitler and Patton are both dead, Hitler by suicide and Patton in a car accident)

Anyway... How does this all play into the Marvel Universe? Wellll the Spear of Destiny has appeared a few times. first and later in Invaders Now Vol 1 (an a Wolverine one-shot, but that story has no bearing on the overlying theme)

In the Marvel Universe, the Nazis sought the Spear of Destiny because it was a magical object. Cap and the Invaders recovered it in Twelve: Spearhead.

Talking about, I'll need your expertise as a Hydra/S.H.I.E.L.D. expert and as an American to recognize some characters that might be useful (presumably more for Shield than for Spear).

So, I'm wondering.... With the possible connections between Hydra and the Brotherhood of the Spear... and the by-proxy connection with the Nazis.. I wonder if the Spear of Destiny is also the same Spear originally used by the Brotherhood of the Spear?

This is all theoretical of course, but it really makes you wonder.

Likely, Shield's elements have influenced the creation of S.H.I.E.L.D. in the da Vinci-Newton war aftermaths (IIRC, the agency was created in the the 60's, and the war happened in the 50's, 1956-1957, around that time I think).

This wouldn't surprise me actually. Since Da Vinci later went on to form the Great Wheel, which involved Fury and SHIELD has been in operation as early as 1966... If the Brotherhood of Shield didn't have a direct hand in creating S.H.I.E.L.D., Fury certainly took inspiration to them.

As an aside, this also really makes an explanation as to how S.H.I.E.L.D. (at least according to early issues of Strange Tales Vol 1) could have been created in the Modern Age a bit of a headscratcher. The best I can figure is that S.H.I.E.L.D. operated covertly for decades and when the Modern Age happened they made themselves public under the deception that they were a brand new organization. That's the only explanation that could make sense without ignoring anything that has been previously established over the last 50 years.

I've thought about that, I believe they maybe prefer to save the mystery, spill more hints (Captain America: Steve Rogers #7, Doctor Strange and the Sorcerers Supreme #1, Avengers World #13) and later gave us the whole story.

Yeah, I posed the question to Tom Brevoort on Formspring and got not response about it. Whatever Marvel is up to they are keeping tight lipped about it.

Since Hickman finished the story years ago (but Marvel hasn't published them) I can see them dropping hints to stretch out the mystery. With Isaac Newton popping up again it leads me to believe that perhaps other characters from S.H.I.E.L.D. Vol 1 & 2 will be popping up in the future. Perhaps they'll drum up interest in the title again and then re-release the original run and finally publish the final two issues. It wouldn't be the first time they did that, they did it with The Twelve.

Given the situation, I think we have to include the Hand (if related to the Spear and/or Hydra) and all Hydra stuff from before the 1960's/S.H.I.E.L.D. era (maybe the Secret Warriors' revelation that S.H.I.E.L.D. was Hydra's puppet from the beginning also).

Yeah, taking a look at what's available it appears to me that things kind of ran like this:


 * Creation of the Brotherhoods of the SHIELD and Spear (Egyptian times)
 * The Hand is Formed
 * There's also an off-shoot of the Hand called the True Believers that first appeared in Amazing Spider-Man #421. I doubt they really tie into all of this but it's worth a look investigating.
 * Hydra is formed (Early 1941)
 * Hydra and the Hand collude together and part ways (1941ish)
 * Hydra continues to operate independently throughout the war. Slowly starts to operate independently of the Nazi party. Becomes full independent post 1945 after the death of Hitler.
 * The war between the Brotherhood of the Shield (Mid 1950s)
 * Da Vinci forms the Great Wheel (Late 50s)
 * Strucker renews Hydra
 * Fury forms SHIELD (by 1966 at the latest)
 * Leviathan is formed
 * This also ties in the Hand, and the Zodiac Cartel
 * S.H.I.E.L.D. and Hydra clash with each other over the convening decades, all part of Fury's grand manipulations. Hydra is led to believe it formed S.H.I.E.L.D. in secret.
 * Modern Age of Heroes starts
 * S.H.I.E.L.D. goes public, appearing to be a new organization designed to combat the "new" Hydra.

These are all things I can recall off the top of my head.

I think maybe what we need to do is plot a timeline out based on all the pre-modern age appearances of all of the affected organizations.

I think once we have a clearer picture of what they were all up to (and find references for them all) we can go from there.

I'm going to start pulling all comics I can find to figure out that stuff out.