Thread:Wazzirving/@comment-61371-20120303161509/@comment-61371-20120307023638

"I was talking about Bishop in the AoA and the entire cast of AoX, excluding Revelation. Each of those is the same character that simply went somewhere else, changed their names and personality and got a separate page for it"

With AoX, it's like HoM: A different reality was overlaid on Earth-616 in a localized area. AoX has a reality number, and again, Moira SPECIFICALLY said that's what she was doing. Not to mention some of the supporting series that took place prior to the AoX event itself and outside of the Utopia (or equivalent) area. Many of the AoX characters (such as the Avengers, Omega Red, and a few others) were ONLY seen in those series OUTSIDE of the Utopia area. Not to mention the changes inflicted by the event that were the result of those personalities and powers being overlaid on the existing characters (Chamber's repowering, Frenzy's feelings for Cyclops, Gambit's brief love of guns, Cannonball's psychological trauma).

"Rachel changed both, true, not right out of the timestream, but none-the-less still changed her name. I wasn't so much focused on the "when", but the fact that she did."

This harkens back to Ed's statement about Jean Grey: So anytime a character changes their name, it should be a new page? Or are you saying that a traumatic event should be key? If so, then does that mean we need a new page for Archangel? Just because she changed her name (in response to certain events) doesn't mean she needs a separate page. She went through a life-changing experience. That doesn't mean she's a different lifeform. Or even an altered lifeform (any more so than ANY change is an alteration to a lifeform).

"I didn't mean ALL of the Kangs. I thought I made it clear that I believed Immortus and Iron Lad made conscious decisions to be different and were excluded from the "Kangs" that I brought-up. "

Even Rama-Tut made a conscious decision to be different from Kang. It's not just those two.

"Also, don't forget that Illyana's page has three Illyana's. Original Illyana died during the Inferno, where she went back in time and brought back her younger self. That younger self that died of the Legacy Virus was not the original. I don't know her Earth designation, but it isn't 616. The third one is the one you brought-up. "

And I agree, regarding the younger Illyana (the one that appeared post-Inferno). Though I'd want more people's opinions.

"n the end, it seems you don't want it because there is no evidence that she is not the original Rachel. I honestly can't provide that because it does not exist, but just like with Mother Askani, there is no guarantee that when Rachel Grey dies, we won't learn an elaborate story of another Rachel out there. "

And until Rachel returned, we WOULD and DID treat Mother Askani AS Rachel. Yes, she may be revealed to a new character in the future, but that could be said of ANY character (we all thought Mockingbird was dead until she came off that Skrull ship. Aunt May was revealed to be a duplicate how many years after she was thought dead? There's Spider-Man's parents, who we thought had returned, but later found out were simulacrums). Until we KNOW it's a separate character, we should treat it as the SAME character. Just like we don't treat Aunt May NOW as a separate character or Mockingbird NOW as a separate character from before their return. ANY character could end up being something else at ANY time. We shouldn't operate on the assumption that they are, but on the assumption that they AREN'T. When we know better, then we can make the changes (creating a separate Mother Askani page. A page for the Mockingbird Skrull), but until then, there should be a FIRM reasoning for it being a separate page, not just "it's happened before" (unless it literally happens ALL the time: Every time the character appears, it's someone new, similar to the Grasshopper identity). Just like we can often assume a character's dead, even though more often than not, they AREN'T dead (though that's pretty much a given. A duplicate/alternate character isn't, as that's ALMOST never the case...though it certainly happens quite often).

Heck, we didn't even make a separate page for the Jonas Vision until he started SPECIFICALLY identifying himself as a separate entity, despite him having only the imprinted memories of the original Vision (but none of the personality, and a completely new body).

"If it was 10 years ago, we would have called Mother Askani "Rachel Summers (Earth-811)" and been wrong."

No, we would have been RIGHT...until she came back. THEN we wouldn't be wrong, we would be responding to the new information. Just like assuming the Phoenix that appeared in Uncanny #101 was Jean. It wouldn't be wrong to assume otherwise until something else comes along and disproves it (in fact, it would be wrong to assume she WASN'T Jean. Looking back, it would be absolute nonsense to think it was anyone BUT Jean). NOTHING has come along to disprove that the current Rachel isn't the past Rachel. When something does, changes can be made. Until then, there's no more need for a separate page for this Rachel any more than for a post-Ragnarok Thor, a post-HoM Hawkeye, or a post-Winter Soldier Bucky (ALL of whom have been assumed to be imposters, but none have YET to be proven to be anything but the original article. Could that change in the future? Absolutely. And when it does, it can be dealt with. Until then, all should be assumed to be the same). Heck, how do we know that the current Colossus is the same as the original? He was dead. Couldn't it be possible that the current Colossus is a Skrull, Dire Wraith, Chameloid, or some other imposter alien, alternate reality version, or some other such thing? And if not, how can you PROVE he's not? And why SHOULDN'T we create a page for him? Because he didn't change his identity? Because he has the exact same personality? I dunno, seems kinda suspicious to me. Like something an imposter would do. I say we assume he's NOT the same and create a new page.

"With the timesplit deal, like Kang and his counterparts, we have no idea which Rachel this is and separating them makes it so we aren't forced to figure out which Rachel incarnation this is."

Except that it's STILL Rachel. With Kang and his counterparts, we always know it's Kang, we just don't know where in their personal chronologies they're appearing or where they take place in regards to other identities' chronologies. Nor are we dealing with constant meet-ups of various Rachel identities with them fighting each other and splitting off of each other and otherwise causing a headache (in fact, if you can make sense of Kang and his identities' chronologies, motivations, and reasonings, I will declare you completely right about everything ever and do whatever you say from this point forward). Her life, with the exception of the Mother Askani business, is one clear line. Could events change that? You betcha. But until they DO, it's bad policy to assume it's anything but the original Rachel for the many, many reasons I've listed above.