Thread:Nausiated/@comment-3406131-20161123180656/@comment-3406131-20161126135139

Hi sorry for late answer.

Nausiated wrote: About the 616 and 1218 similarities, I think for the most part, the idea that they lived similar lives is presumptive in lieu of any in-story facts that might be stated. I am of the mind that if we link to a credible source on the real life version of the person (say Wikipedia for example) that should be suitable. I think to add 1218 facts would overshadow the facts specific to Earth-616. Oops, I might have misexpressed myself: I was stating "keep the events that occurred in both 1218 and comic-reality-relevant (most of the time 616)" (maybe I didn't understood what you've said in the first place). I am against using references to 1218 stuff (or in a very discreet way if needed, and I've no example right here) (for example, I greatly dislike Stephen Hawking (Earth-616)'s page, because instead of focusing on his 616 side, people have focused on 1218 facts and it was ruled that we had to assume anything happened, without reference. It's presumably the same, but still, nothing, proves it in comics).

Nausiated wrote: I also feel that when it comes to real life facts.. and this probably applies more to political figures than anything else.. we are opening ourselves up to people starting edit wars over differing opinions or interpretation on the subject in question. Yep.

Nausiated wrote: Using Elvis as an example, if people really want to split hairs, they could argue everything on if he really died in 1977 or not, or dispute evidence that Elvis didn't do drugs (people have argued this). People even have differing opinions on how Elvis made fried chicken. The rule remains to stick to comics.

Nausiated wrote: A side point to this is that I feel that most people who create profiles on real life individuals aren't going to do the necessary research on the individual before adding the information. (The Elvis Profile before I edited it is a great example.) On those, it is mandatory, at least have a look at a brief chronology of the character, to know where to add that event or that one.

Nausiated wrote: I feel that if people are interested in knowing the real life version of the person versus the one appeared in comics they can research it on a site that is the center of expertise on such subjects. While I am sure there are people who may edit on the Marvel Database who are knowledgeable on real life people, I don't think anyone is really all that motivated to focus on such dry subject. I am on a few characters (I did a few edits on Mandela and a few others). I didn't added his death (Spencerz added a note on the subject) and the page remains almost only on comic material, with references even for 1218 events unmodified in 616. I would not have added them without those references.

So to sum up:
 * Comics material only
 * Even for events and facts unchanged between 616 and 1218
 * 1218 events can be parsimoniously used to clarify 616 ones only if there is NOTHING that seems to differ (but that point is that subtle it's almost better to ignore it)

Nausiated wrote: On the point where Genis-Vell states that Elvis was an alien. I could see how having the Cosmic Consciousness could make his statement irrefutable, but there is no corroborating evidence of this. He was making a statement. Given the tongue-and-cheek nature of a lot of Peter David's writing particularly with the relationship between Rick Jones and Genis at the time... I could question that validity of the statement. He could have been saying it as a joke, or to get a rise out of Rick. I would file that one under "believe it when I see it". I see you point of view. But we have to separate the writer's jokes from the in-universe statement resulting from the joke (a 1218 joke in a comics can be a fact in 616).

Nausiated wrote: It's a little different than say, for example, the Skrull Beatles. If you take a look at Wisdom Vol 1, it's a major subplot of the series and there are multiple people corroborating it. Nothing to say about it indeed. (The real Beatles would need a brush on their page, while we're talking about it, including in relation with the Skrull Beatles)

Nausiated wrote: I would put that fact in the same category as people who think Elvis is still alive (or at least didn't die in 1977), you can show a lot of statements that suggest it, but nothing that critically proves it. It would take Elvis appearing publicly going "Hey, I'm still alive!" pretty much. Now I disagree, because Genis isn't a conspirationist. He is just stating a fact (or a joke). But the statement would be an in-between, for it is indeed never proved on-panel.

Nausiated wrote: I feel much the same about a single statement made by a character in a comic published 12 years ago. There's not even so much of a flashback backing this up (if I recall correctly). It would have also been nice if Genis mentioned which species this alien was or some other facts to give it some credibility. No flashback, no detail, it was kind of a "did you know that..."/"fun fact" statement.

Nausiated wrote: As for Elvis being seen in Hades.. Again, that's more in line with common situations in the Marvel Universe.

Examples I could think of is the appearance of Mocking Bird among the Legion of the Unliving in when it was later revealed in Secret Invasion that she wasn't died by replaced by a Skrull impostor.

So was the dead woman posing as Mockingbird the Skrull impostor? Something else? Other Legion of the Unliving examples are the inclusion of Bucky and Count Nefaria.

If you take a look at the most recent profile in the Marvel Handbooks about the Legion of the Unliving It states that some incarnations of the Legion particularly ones that existed in some neitherworld or were depicted as reanimated corpses (So Legions created by the Grim Reaper and other supernatural forces rather than the ones created by Kang or Immortus) it has a note stating that the possibility that these roles were filled by impostors (possibly demons) to further torment the heroes they were facing against. That Mockingbird appearance always bothered me. I hoped you might know of an in-comics explanation (the SKrull rituel continued for the spirit after death, or something like this).

Nausiated wrote: Another example is Scott Lang as Ant-Man in the realm of the dead in X-Statix Presents: Dead Girl Vol 1 when we learn later in Avengers: The Children's Crusade Vol 1 that he was pulled forward in time mere moments before his apparent death during Avengers Disassembled. Wasn't that time-travel thing done during the Children's Crusade (creating another time-line) ?

Nausiated wrote: So to get to the crux of it.. Was the person in Hades really Elvis? Or was it someone else posing as Elvis? There is certainly precedence for this kind of deception. Likewise, I question why Elvis would be in the neither realm belonging to the Greek pantheon of Gods. Particularly since Presley was Pentecostal. Generally speaking, most people who truly die in the Marvel Universe end up in an afterlife representative of their belief system (or closest approximation thereof). Based on that, it'd take a little more explaining to quantify why he'd be in Hades instead of a more Catholic style afterlife (be it a paradise or eternal damnation notwithstanding)

Taaaaking all that into account. In the context of the story... ...

Wow.. Okay... So again, I'd question a lot of these characters appearances being here given the record of deceptions in the various neither realms of the afterlife. Also given the chosen faith of a lot of these characters.

[...]

Annnd then there's the death/faith thing. I'd say it's incredibly unlikely that any of these characters had faith any Grecian religions that worshiped the Olympians. This is particularly bothersome when you consider that Orka (an Atlantean) and Vernake (a Skrull) is seen among these character. They're not even humans and likely believe in a faith more in line with their cultural backgrounds (if at all). Maaaaaaaybe Baron Zemo and Armless Tiger Man given their Germanic heritage and it's loose connection to both Norse and Grecian mythology, but even that is a stretch.

Anyway, long winded explanation, but the credibility of all of these well established characters are quite a lot more questionable than a minor appearance of Elvis, who -- in the context of the story was among heroes waiting to be resurrected... His inclusion was likely a joke on the part of the creative team. It probably shouldn't even been taken literally anyway... But here we are.

Wow... Comics are hard sometimes. Yep yep yep. And I hoped that writers would study the characters they use. Maybe by using the wikia...

Your examples are valid for themselves. While you're right to use those to consider other similar events. But for now, we have to stick (sometimes with precisions in notes).

For the whole list, I tend to see those as easter eggs. And find some shitty explanations to explain why non-Greek-religion-believers might happen there, like "people of all faiths might get there for some untold reasons."

So I would recommend to keep what we know, and add notes on the subject.