Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-1820614-20150731024240/@comment-61022-20150827002928

You're running around on a faulty understanding of what atheism is. It's the belief that there is not one, singular, divine creator of all existence. I'd figure you'd miss the point entirely. You're using the "duck is a duck is a duck" argument on this? You might as well be trying to argue for creationism over evolution, that's how poor a house of cards you're building here.

There's nothing stubborn about their unwillingness to believe. The proof -- or rather what you define as proof -- is not enough. As for forcing? Who are they forcing? They're merely stating their belief, they're not forcing anyone to follow their view point. I think this is the biggest flaw when you're presenting your argument because you fail to even grasp the tone or context in which they have stated their religious beliefs (or lack thereof).

The reason Stark and Pym are atheist is because they do not believe in a divinity. The reason why it is impossible to believe in a divine universe is because the one they exist in is rife with multiplicity. You talk about the number of characters that are classified as gods because of the sheer volume of them, they should believe. But that's where you're missing the point. It's because of the sheer number of these beings is evidence enough to them that there is no divinity. Boiling it down to it's most simple point, creation in the universe must be strained down to one single source that uniquely supreme among all others.

Every trait you apply to gods are also traits that are seen in so many other characters that don't meet or identify with the classification of being a god. There is nothing unique about them, they're as unique as mutants, Inhumans, or even baseline humans. The sheer number of them does not make them very impressive when taking into scope the totality of all existence.

The argument your making is exactly why Stark and Pym don't believe in anything divine. The gods, as they are classified, support their atheist beliefs because there are so many of them, and there are other beings that carry similar traits or are more powerful than gods. There is no evidence of a divine power that has created everything in their universe.

So until someone can point to some empirical proof that one thing created all existence, a completely undeniable divine creator, then Pym and Stark are going to go on believing what they believe.

Also on the point of Fraction making Richards tell his children there is no heaven or hell, is actually a valid argument. Yes there is an afterlife in the Marvel Universe, but again there is multiplicity. The idea of a divine creator also would apply specific rules to where people go in the afterlife. But if you take a look at all the different places, there are so many different and conflicting versions of "heaven" and "hell". How can you quantify that there are two very specific places a soul can go when they die, and have a set of rigid rules that apply to who ends up there when there are so many that exist. There is no consistency. Someone who dies can end up in any number of places.

Even the One-Above-All is suspect, because even though he appears to be a divine creator, there is no actual evidence proving it. He's just the most powerful being that has been seen to date. And that is only a relative statement because the fact is -- flashy name aside -- there is no evidence that he's any more powerful than any other being. There are other beings that are more powerful than the gods themselves that I would argue make the OAA nothing that spectacular, the Ones Above All of the Asgardian pantheon are a great example. He's never fought Eternity, or even the Beyonders.

You can't even call Eternity a divine being because of the multiverse, each universe having it's own Eternity.

Then there's the Beyonders, who claim to have created everything. Did they really? We're only taking them at their word. Sure they're capable of destroying a reality, but creating all realities that have ever existed? That's not been proven.

Then there's demons and angels and all manner of other godly-by-proxy beings that exist. The only commonality that any of these other creatures have is constant contradiction or willing deception. How many demons out there have claimed to be the one true Satan? Quite a lot. Much like there have been many who claim to be various angels or divine figures. Plenty have been outed as frauds, others are so contradictory between one and the other.

Getting back on point: Basically, your using facts to try and prove a negative. In that, because all these characters that are characterized as gods exist means that atheism is impossible (or stubborn as you would put it). Whereas, Stark and Pym -- being scientists -- are looking for proof of a positive. In that presenting facts prove conclusively that there is a divinity. Applying all the evidence out there, there is no proof that there is a divine creator. Just more unanswered questions that are waiting for the right evidence to support a theory.

As I said in my original post, Stark and Pym have seen even the most powerful and mightiest beings in the universe (some even calling themselves gods) be brought down low by normal human beings. A divine power could not have such faults or be defeated in any capacity. As such, as long as there are flaws, weaknesses, or defeat that can be heaped upon these characters, they will never be anywhere close to proving anything without a shadow of a doubt for hardcore scientists like Stark and Pym.

The other thing about atheists that you seem to have a problem understanding is that being an atheist is not denouncing any religion. It's choosing not to have faith in them because there is not enough empirical evidence supporting said faith for them to believe it as factual.

You make it sound like they're going around trying to convert everyone to their way of thinking. I'm also puzzled as why the theological view points of fictional characters would bother you so much.