Thread:Undoniel/@comment-25192437-20180730153426/@comment-25192437-20180924112831

Undoniel wrote: Arawn 999 wrote: That raises the question of how we would define what counts and doesn't count as an Old One - the page for which looks like it could use a clean-up. Even the source material of the Cthulhu Mythos is rather vague, beyond them being reality-breaking extra-dimensional alien god-monsters that are beyond human comprehension.

Marvel's assortment of Old Ones are either directly lifted from, homages to, or otherwise inspired by the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods of the Cthulhu Mythos, but there's also the "Possible Old Ones" category page, and creatures on the "Cthulhu Mythos Pastiches" category page that fit the basic description of "extradimensional eldritch god-monster" but aren't explicitly stated to be Old Ones. In fact that doesn't raise the question, and neither the Old Ones page or its category need a clean-up (except the regarding of potential moves of designation to "Multiverse" for Yog-Sothoth and potentially all of the Old Ones. The Old Ones page contains only stuff related to the Old Ones, either explicitly called that way, or identified despite/thanks to other designations (Elder Ones, Dark Ones, elder gods, etc.). What counts like an Old One is something explicitly stated as such.

"reality-breaking extra-dimensional alien god-monsters that are beyond human comprehension" and "extradimensional eldritch god-monster" are indeed ways to describe an Old One, but it could be other things (most likely to be indeed among the class 3 demons, who aren't limited to the Old Ones). Besides, the source material of the Cthulhu Mythos can't be used here as Marvel doesn't necessarily stick to it. For example, Dagon isn't a confirmed Great Old One but only a possible Old One in Marvel.

Concerning the categories:
 * Old Ones includes Old Ones, Great Old Ones, Many-Angled Ones, and, regarding the context to determine if they are the ones designated (and not another group), elder gods (many groups are known as Elder Gods), dark gods (many groups are known as Dark Gods), dark ones, outsiders, elder ones (Elder Ones possibly exist as their own),
 * References to any of those names, of to stuff like "Lovecraftian monsters" or "chthonic entities" may likely related to any of the categories I'm talking about ("Old Ones", "Possible Old Ones", "Cthulhu Mythos Pastiches", "Class III demons", or not. It depends on the sum of the references, cross-facted with other stuff.
 * "Possible Old Ones" is for characters that have been stated to be possible Old Ones (as in explained in the category page).
 * It could be opened to characters that have solid sources (not simply the character's appearance or concept) to possibly be old ones: For example, "references to the "Outer Dark" would typically refer to demons of the third class, of extradimensional origin, primarily the Old Ones and the N'Garai" (, Demons' entry) would be enough to consider a character as a possible N'Garai and possible Old One. The "elder god" appearing in would (if I create a page for it) be justified as a "possible Old One", as he is called an "elder god" (one of the Old Ones' names) and stated to come from the Outer Dark.
 * It include also Cthuma-Gurath, added because stated that he could possibly Shuma-Gorath, and consequently is possibly an Old One.
 * Cthulhu Mythos Pastiches includes creatures that have been created as seemingly pastiches, and can include both confirmed Old Ones, possible Old Ones and completely-non-identified-whether-Old-One-or-not entities.

In case of doubt/uncertainty, it's best to stick exactly to what is known.

I tried to post it on your wall since yesterday but seems like I can't message you directly on your wall (the message simply disappear each time I post it), so let's do it here: Undoniel wrote: Hi!

Thanks to contribute to the Old Ones pages.

However, I have to ask you to be more conscientious in your edits. For example:
 * You've added the category Old Ones to Ann'var (Earth-20051) without it being stated to be in the issue.
 * You've added the category Possible Old Ones to World-Eater (Earth-616) without any reference to support it. I suppose you wanted to emphasize the Lovecraft Mythos aspect of the character. I don't feel like checking all his appearances and mentions for now, so I undid your edit and added a rapid note on the Cthulhu Mythos but if there was indeed any reference in the issues he's involved in, please complete the page accordingly.

In both cases, I've created (the same day that your edits, coincidentally) Category:Cthulhu Mythos Pastiches for characters and other stuff inspired by the Cthulhu Mythos.

But in any case, like for all edits (including simply adding categories), references and/or an explication text are needed. And to avoid errors, it's better to stick to what the comics actually states and not give too much way to interpretation. For example, Ann'var could be an Old One, but he could be another species of the Cthulhu Mythos, or another race of demons or aliens.

PS: On the question "Should Ann'var be moved to Ann'var (Multiverse)", I am unsure, as he claimed to come from another reality, not an in-between, and the rule (at least in the past) was that on alternate realities comics and TV shows, a non-native retained the designation of the reality he is on (I don't if that's clear, but let's just say "Rachel Summers" and "Lucas Bishop" as great examples).

Have a good day! Mmm. That makes sense. It's odd that my page wouldn't be working, though.