Board Thread:Questions and Answers/@comment-61022-20160330220251/@comment-61022-20160406160546

Pokemonmewtwos wrote: To add on to his comment, if they weren't actually Earth-616 and Earth-1610, then why does the Battleworld map say 20b. Manhattan-Earth-616 and 20c. Manhattan-Earth-1610? Why couldn't they use another reality number like Earth-1000000 or etc.? Why does Secret Wars-Official Guide to the Multiverse say: "Reality-1610 was destroyed in this final incursion with Reality-616, though some parts of both were salvaged by an all-powerful Dr. Doom-616 when he created Battleworld from Multiversal remnants; some Earth-1610 characters were scattered across Battleworld's domains."?

And to extend my point, how come we consider the Heroes Reborn heroes to be from Earth-616? So, Franklin Richards created a pocket universe where everyone was reborn when everybody died in the battle against Onslaught. In the Marvel Wiki, it says: '''Following the apparent "deaths" of the Avengers and the Fantastic Four during the Onslaught crisis, the heroes suddenly re-appeared on Counter-Earth, reliving their lives in new, different ways, oblivious to their pasts. They had been transported into a pocket universe by Franklin Richards, the near-omnipotent son of Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman."''' Another example would be the Onslaught Reborn storyline, which in this case, following M-Day, Franklin Richards created another reality which had a similar history to Earth-616, but we still consider it to be Earth-616. And in Secret Wars, everybody (in Earth-616 and Earth-1610) basically died in the incursions and reborn in two different domains (or in the case of the Thors, Doomgard) Battleworld (Earth-15133), reliving their lives in new, different ways, and they were oblivious to their pasts as well, only this time it was from an omnipotent Doctor Doom.

And why does the reality designation of Earth-61610 seemingly similar to Earth-616 and Earth-1610?

All the information that the pro-Earth-61610 guys are using is the recent handbook, while I used the Battleworld map, two handbooks, evidence from the Ultimate End titles to back up my explanation, previous events such as Heroes Reborn and Onslaught Reborn to back up my explanation.

You guys say: "Oh, Captain America died in Cataclysm, Iron Man is wearing his old armor, and different characters such as Emma Frost are wearing an old costume." But I remember a time where on the Miguel O'Hara page, when I mentioned how Max Borne died in a clash with Chameleon 2211, and he was in Spider-Verse unexpectedly, you guys were like "Oh probably he was resurrected in his universe, that's how he was in Spider-Verse." And multiple characters had their costumes prior to All-New All-Different Marvel Now! such as Quicksilver, Doc Green, Hulk (Earth-1610), Angel (in his Black Vortex form) (Old Man Logan), Captain America (Sam Wilson), Iron Man (Tony Stark) (see Ultimate End #1), Shang-Chi, Thing (Earth-1610) (in his energy form), Storm (Earth-616), Magik, Hawkeye of both realities, and etc.

Citing Heroes Reborn is a bad example, because Marvel stated from the very beginning of that storyline, and stuck with the assertion, that those characters were the original 616 versions. Versus Ultimate End, where they have remained ambiguous. Also Marvel has been pretty clear that Franklin creates pocket dimensions, not alternate realities. That's the difference between the two. This was reinforced in Fantastic Four Vol 5, when the Quiet Man exploited Franklin's Onslaught Reborn dimension for his army.

Also you seem to be ignoring the countless examples I have provided instances I cited on April 1 (at 15:15 pm) where I gave multiple references that support the position we're all leaning toward.

Also you're picking at scraps of old and outdated supplementary information. Yes, they were published relatively recently, but that information is out of date the moment the All-New All-Different Handbook came out. Your argument is like arguing that something printed in Delux Edition Handbooks from 1985 should be considered factual even though a a more recent edition has updated or changed information.

Also, you're picking at marketing material. Do you think they would have sold as many copies of Ultimate End if they said right off the start "Hey, these aren't the 616 or 1610 versions but ones very similar to them"? It was simply an exercise in branding and recognition to boost sales. Plain and simple.

I have also pointed out countless times how Marvel frequently does things like this in order to maintain an "original" reality so they can revisit it later. If you think Earth-1610 is truly destroyed you are incredibly naive.

As for your argument about Max Borne being killed yet appearing in Spider-Verse. You're interpretation of our position is incorrect. On the Talk Page ADour supposed that Max was likely plucked out of a different point in history prior to his death, not resurrected as you suggested. That's a big difference.

Spider-Verse for all intents and purposes was a reality hopping story, but it also dealt with time travel as well since we were dealing with Spider-Men from different realities that happened in different eras. In a situation like that, it is entirely possible that those Spider-Men were pulled out of earlier points in their PERSONAL history (As opposed to the flow of Earth-616 time). It's also incredibly plausible if said character was not killed in Spider-Verse. For all we know Max Borne survived and went on to continue his appointed destiny and death at the hands of the Chameleon.

That said, there is no indication that Doom utilized any means of pulling characters from earlier points in history. The entire multiverse collapsed, that would have meant all points in the past present and the future ceased to exist simultaneously. All characters appear here as they ARE, meaning he probably only had time to pull from the what passes for the "present" in each reality.