All posts by Glowing Glorfindel
@Kvile2000 Yes, Zemo felt the same way about his wife and child. That's why he wanted your Tony dead and no amount of screaming **NOT HIS FAULT** was going to stop that. Just a pity he didn't succeed.
Tony did nothing beneficial to humanity his entire life. Except die. Ironic really.
@Kvile2000 Bucky had no free will or the capacity to make a choice. That was literally removed by continual and deliberate damage to the part of the brain which regulates such things. There was also the small matter of duress, which is considered mitigation under law. People under duress cannot fully exercize free will or consent.
So what you are demanding essentially the same. The gun (Bucky) should be punished, not the person who operated it (HYDRA/The Sovs).
Ultron was a machine, an AI Program designed by Tony and acting on his programming. It just took that to its natural conclusion. One does not charge a computer if it activates a super weapon. One charges the person who programmed it.
Since everyone in Universe and most reasonable people outside consider Tony responsible for what Ultron did, the whole point is moot anyway.
Conversely, people in the MCU do not consider those under mind control to be responsible for their actions. Natasha, Clint and Bucky all killed people under mind control. Its interesting that you do not demand Natasha or Clint be punished. Could that be because of *who* they killed and who those people were related to are not considered important enough?
@Kvile2000 Oh hun, Tony's company made and sold that missile. You do not make and sell something designed and intended for the sole purpose of killing people, and then claim innocence. Which is why weapons dealers like Tony are considered complicit in the crimes that their weapons are used for.
Tony built Ultron. Tony was therefore responsible. Even the peoplle whose families died in Sergovia understand that. You cannot blame a weapon for killing people. Weapons are inanimate objects without free will. You cannot blame a machine for obeying its programming, because it has no agency. You blame person who made the weapon/machine or operated it.
Why am I even having to explain this to you? Its basic. Honestly, you Tony fans are so desperate to exonerate him of all responsibility for his actions, its almost laughable. He was an adult with free will and agency who made and sold weapons. Ergo, he is responsible for the deaths they caused.
Howard Stark was a known arms dealer transporting military techonology in his car at the time of his death. That he chose to take his wife with him was unfortunate, but was still his choice, and it made them both legitimate military targets. Like if an army offiicer took his family with him in a military vehicle for a picnic during active operations. They are considered legitimate military targets.
Bucky was the weapon used to kill the Starks. The thing without agency and free will. The person who made or operated the weapon is to blame. That would be the Soviets with probable involvement from HYDRA. Take your pick.
Most likely, one of Howard Stark's own employees tipped off the Soviets about his serum and his movements. He was betrayed by one of his own, his own actions came to bite him. Dramatic irony.
@Kvile2000 I sentence Tony to death for the killing of Wanda's parents, Charles Spencer Zemo's family and the entire population of Sergovia.
Zemo gets to fire the first shot, and Bucky the second as Tony's father recruited the Nazi war criminal who tortured him and held him as a POW.
Actually, Howard Stark was guilty of treason, and complicit in war crimes for working with a War Criminal who experimented on American Soldiers in WW2.
So, yeah. Bucky technically entitled to execute Howard Stark for that and being in breach of the Geneva Convention.
#buckyisavictim
#allstarkssuck
@TheOgreS There was nothing patriotic about what Tony did in CW. He was literally agreeing to an authoritarian law and governmental control instead of human rights in return for security. Also so he didn't have to be held responsible for his actions in another country.
Cap is America's values at their best (freedom, the rights of the individual, anti-authoritarian) Tony is the worst that Americans can be.
Er.... no. Natasha was planning on leaving anyway, Bruce was missing, and The Avengers broke up & ended up in prison because Tony sold them all out to Ross already through the Accords. Steve rescued 'em from said prison.
Tony is the guy who thought a little authoritarianism was OK in return for temporary security- and the Accords were as authoritarian as you can get.
Thanos won because of Tony's "we don't trade lives" idea. All it took to make Strange hand over the Time Stone was for Thanos to threaten Spiderman- who died anyway.
Bucky would rather told them to let him die instead of hand the thing over.
#capwasright
#buckyisavictim
#howardstarksucks
@TheOgreS The thing is, what Tony did wasn't purely an emotional reaction. The director and writer in the commentary make it clear there was an element of deliberate sadism and vindictiveness to it.
He didn't just want to kill Bucky for killing his mother he wanted to make him suffer. He also wanted to kill him in order to hurt Steve.
It also wasn't just a one-off spur of the moment thing, he was trying to kill Bucky for several minutes and resisting attempts to stop him. He wanted Steve to watch helplessly as he did it to "punish" him as much as Bucky.
@Kvile2000 Clint killed a tonne of people under mind control, so did Nat, you demanding the death penalty for them? "Oh but they made a sacrifice!" Clint didn;t.
Bucky already sacrificed himself to save Cap in WW2 and may do so again. You gonna deprive him of that chance?
I would argue Howard Stark is more a direct villlain. He hired a ton of Nazi scientists who he straight out knew were war criminals, he made a living selling weapons and then people wonder why he got killed by the very people whose rise he enabled in the first place.
Tony is more complacent and self-righteous than straight out villainous. He's the narcissisist who doesn't care about the consequences of his actions, or even expects you to "thank" him for hurting you because he was "trying to save the world" or some such rubbish.
@captainkirkandBall
The trouble is that if you are going to justify it, you also have to say that Zemo trying to kill Tony to avenge his family was right as well. It can't just be OK for *one* person and not for the other.
@Kvile2000 Natasha killled mommies and babies, Tony killed Zemo's baby and its mommy, yet I don't see anyone saying they deserve to die for it.