Two things I'm curious about.

  • Once a reality is named, what will we do? I figure that it would be best just move everything to the new number, and then just "retire" the TRN. Because I can see reusing the TRN's becoming a large mess. On this page, maybe just strike through the entry, and put in parenthesis (Officially Renamed: Earth-#####).
  • On the multiverse page, we have a section named "Unofficial Reality Numbers". Since these TRNs, and those Unofficial numbers, are not officially named by Marvel, would it be protocol to change all those Unofficial Numbers into TRNs?

--Spencerz 01:38, February 20, 2011 (UTC)

Your first point sounds good. Your second, I'd suggest adding move tags to the appropriate pages and listing those reality numbers here as taken. There's also an Unofficial Reality Number category running around (or was). Should take that into account.
--GrnMarvl14 02:02, February 20, 2011 (UTC)
Alright then. And I have seen that category floating around once or twice. It's a little confusing to me, since the last time I saw it, it contained maybey five realities, most of which were listed as official realities on the Multiverse page.(Earth-91119/the Super Hero Squad reality is the one that really jumps to mind). So I'll scour the Marvel universe listing on the Marvel site before I tinker with those.

But I'll get started with those move tags later tonight, and try to get all of that lined up.

--Spencerz 02:17, February 20, 2011 (UTC)

Revenge of Shinobi?

Should the Genesis game The Revenge of Shinobi be included? Marvel allowed Sega to keep their Spider-Man character and even has the copyright notice in the game. Zakor1138 18:07, April 11, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure that we cover third party/unofficial appearences like Revenge of Shinobi. --Spencerz 21:34, April 12, 2011 (UTC)
Hmm. I thought it was "kinda" official, since the copyright notice was there. You're probably right though. Zakor1138 21:10, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

Movie based games

Should most of the movie based games be listed in their own realities? Like the Spider-Man movie games, or X-Men Origins: Wolverine game? Their storylines are quite different. (Film Spider-Man 1's Norman Osborn tells Peter not to tell Harry, but the movie game's Norman tells Peter to tell Harry he's sorry, etc.) The 2003 Hulk game and X-Men: The Official Game can exist in the films universe since Hulk's game is a sequel and X-Men: TOG takes place between X2 and X-Men: The Last Stand. Zakor1138 21:17, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

We've actually had discussions about this before, and the conclusion we decided upon was that Film and/or TV Series tie-ins like video games and novels should be left in the film's universe unless there are extraordinary differences to make them leave the film continuity (or if Marvel states that a tie-in doesn't belong, such is the case with X2: Wolverine's Revenge), since the tie-in's creators made them with the intention of being in said film's continuity. --Spencerz 23:44, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

TRN Qualifications/Regulations

Stemming from this conversation, specifically the comment at the end left by Farlstendoiro, I want to open up a discussion on exactly what defines a Temporary Reality Number.

Now, from what we've been going with, a reality shown in a story panel, or in an other media representation that is not clearly defined a) in the story, b) in an official Marvel index, or c) at MarvUnnApp can be added to the list. As well, a number of other instances usually end up on the list as well (see topics below)

While this has been an effective method, I believe that Farlstendoiro brings up a good point: we need some basic rules in order to keep the list from becoming cluttered, or filling up with a number of listings that don't nessacarily need to be there.

Some topics I thought of, and would like opinions on:

  • In-Universe other media: The reason this conversation came about was over a film script, and television show, written about Earth-616 Thor, based fictionalized versions of Earth-616 Thor's adventures. Now if the consensus stands, these do not qualify for TRN status, as they're not true realities. However, the Kitty's Fairytale argument from the above link begs the question, where do we draw the line on when a dream or other idea simply stays an idea, or becomes a reality?
  • Time Travel: Most, if not all, cases of time travel to any unndesignated reality would normally qualify said reality for inclusion on the TRN list. Opinions? Or possible exclusions?
  • Home worlds: Currently, if a character or team appears, and is either a) not from a designated reality or b) does not have their home reality disclosed, they are often added to the list. Examples include Earth-TRN021 (Home of Hatch-22), Earth-TRN038 (Home to Boy-Bob Banner), Earth-TRN050 (Marquis of Death), Earth-TRN113 (Subject X), and Earth-TRN020, Earth-2182, Earth-TRN032, and [arth-TRN033 (homeworlds of various Future Exiles members). The question is does the appearance of a character warrant a TRN-designated home world, even if their home world never appears?
  • Video Games: One of the more complicated issues. It's not a big secret that Marvel index listings and the MarvUnnApp often ignore most video games, with exceptions made for series, and bigger, often newer, titles. Therefore, older titles seem to have been left out of the mix. Now, it is assumed by the Index and App writers that, unless there are major contradictions, most video games can just be lumped into Earth-616 continuity. However, this creates issues, as these video games have contradicitions amongst themselves. So,
  • Do we keep are current system concerning video games, or are there changes we need to make?
  • When, if ever, is it acceptable to lump a video game into Earth-616 continuity?
  • Do games based of Earth-616 storylines (like Spider-Man & Venom: Maximum Carnage, The Incredible Hulk: The Pantehon Saga, and Avengers in Galactic Storm) automatically fall under 616 continuity?
  • And finally, when do games not based on Earth-616 storylines fall into Earth-616 continuity? (As GrnMarvl14 pointed out, Marvel Pinball could qualify, as a seperate reality for what, as far as we can tell, is just pinball tables with character based design)

So, I ask for opinions on these topics and points, and welcome and encourage any other points or suggestions I missed. Hopefully we can establish some regulation for the TRN list. --Spencerz 22:45, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

As far as the Kitty's Fairy Tale reality goes: That's been confirmed, due to the Bamfs appearing elsewhere, to be an actual reality. It's not a reality solely because of that story, it's a reality because of other appearances by denizens of that reality.
Time travel is dependent upon where they go, and how that relates to where they started. Certainly, most trips to the past can be assumed to be the same reality (Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix Vol 1, for instance). Trips to the depends on what is seen and how that relates to known realities (Layla and Multiple Man going to Earth-1191 during Messiah Complex). But if it's clearly a different reality, or an unknown future, an alternate reality can be assumed.
Unless you have reason to suspect it's a known reality, then assume it's new. But be careful.
My point with Marvel Pinball is that if it's just characters on a pinball table, then it's likely not deserving of an alternate reality, or ANY reality. For the same reason you don't create pages for when they appear on band-aids, underwear, or ads. It's marketing, nothing more. As far as games are concerned, I'd say you don't assume it's a new reality unless it contradicts known information.
--GrnMarvl14 23:31, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
I think Spencerz meant the Marvel Pinball video game, not real-life pinball games. Zakor1138 04:46, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Oh those wacky alternate realities (My Take)

Ah the wonderful world of alternate realities, my favorite little play ground to be honest. I just though I'd jump into the conversation and add my ideas based on what I'm seeing here and so on.

I like the TRN numbers, which we should adopt as a standard for when neither Marvel nor any of the other official sources haven't given a reality number to something yet. We can always move it later if (and when) it gets an official designation. I was never a fan of those long "Earth-Iron Man Look Into a Kleanex After He Sneezes In It" designations because they're long and cumbersome. The TRN's give us a bit of some autonomy to add material that the official sources haven't gotten a chance to catalogue.

As for what official or "unofficial" universe numbers.... Since most of the unofficial numbers come from the Unofficial Appendix... Well I think we should consider them gospel anyway because for the most part, because the Appendix guys are the ones who do the Official Handbooks and Indexes and so on anyway. Going through appendix of alternate realities in the Official Marvel Handbook hard covers they pretty much just took the universe designations they had on the Appendix for years and made them official.

Video games.... Hew... Well Video Games... And I think Marvel novels and other non-comic book fiction should lump in this category as well... With the novels, I know that the Handbook states that they should all be considered part of alternate realities unless it's specified that they happened on Earth-616. Video games, I think should be the same thing as well. Marvel is giving designations to their current Marvel games. Which makes sense..

However, there are all those old video games that contradict themselves and don't fit with any continuity. Which makes for some messy organization. However, I think therer is a solution here: I direct you to Earth-7642, what has been termed as "Earth-Crossover". Every cross-company crossover that has Marvel characters interacting with other companies characters without any sort of means of inter-dimensional travel (IE: It appears that they exist in the same universe) were all lumped into this one reality.

I think when it comes to the old Marvel games we should adopt a similar method using or TRN indexing. If one reality index to lump them in still doesn't work, perhaps we could do it by console? I can only really attest to the 16-bit era of gaming and I don't really recall these games having much sense of continuity so we could lump them together in that sense.

Nausiated 00:22, April 25, 2011 (UTC)

I really like that idea for the video games. Or at least for the ones that contradict Earth-616 events. With novels, I'd rather we just not worry about reality numbers there unless the reality is known.
--GrnMarvl14 00:31, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
So, the video game idea seems nice (and it would save SOOOO much time in adding all those charcters to disabmiguation pages and the like), but, a) Many older games were released across numerous platforms, and b) we kinda shot ourselves in the foot here if we decided to change this, since we have like 30+ video game-based TRN realities.
And novels...I'm all for being thourogh and covering everything (hell, we covered the Spider-Man musical), but until someone brought up novels, I didn't know they really existed. I kinda feel like nobody would be looking for a novel, and would only know they were here by stumbling across an article by chance. But, I don't see a problem on creating and covering novelizations of movies and the such, since they already have an established reality. --Spencerz 01:06, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
And that would fall under the "unless the reality is known" portion. It's not a problem with creating pages with them, it's a problem with creating appearance links. You can create the page without linking to any appearances, after all.
--GrnMarvl14 02:17, April 25, 2011 (UTC)

So, in regaurds to in-universe publications, someone created Earth-TRN152, about a cartoon starring James Rhodes about ultimate Iron Man. Not sure how to handle it, as it's got it's own limited series. --Spencerz 15:54, April 25, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that was I. I would have left it alone, save for the fact that some characters made their only appearances in those two mini-series and it was recently revealed that the whole thing was just fiction within the Ultimate Universe. Rather than delete those characters, since they never actually existed, I figured a new universe to house them was in order.
Balfro 16:00, April 25, 2011 (UTC)

What The--?! realities

Hi, it's me again. I want to write articles on the characters in the series What The--?! Vol 1. Each issue commonly had several auto-conclusive, humorous short stories that are commonly not intended to have strict continuity, but even then I see these as canon stories presenting new universes, and deserving articles. Some of these stories probably take place in the same universe, if sharing character. For instance, any story featuring Spider-Ham probably take place in Earth-8311, or at least uses Peter Porker (Earth-8311) in a different Universe, but now let's have a look at the original characters, especially if they are being re-used:

My point: Doctor Deranged first appeared in What The #2, and then re-appeared in #4, apparently the same character even if the graphical design was quite different (Hembeck), and even the kind of plot was widely different. So, we can say, "Earth-TMP555555, home of Dr. Deranged."

Now, there are several versions of Wolverine in these series: Wulvoream (#1); Woof'r'eam (#2); Woof'a'eam (#3 and possibly #4 as the story is two-parted); Wrillimean (#6); Wooferine (#7), Wolvie (#9)... In #5, a character also called Wulvoream (like the one in #1) appears sharing a story with the Pulverizer (Pulverizer also appears in a different story in #1 and in #6). I see that Wulvoream from #5 is somehow disimilar to Wulvoream from #1, but it can be understood as an artistic licence more than other thing, and anyway Dr. Deranged changed much more physically; there is no reason to believe that these two characters are different. Thus, Wulvoream shares universe with the Pulverizer. Thus, the Pulverizer shares universe with anyone appearing in Wulvoream's story in #1. Thus, we have an interesting Universe deserving an article.

Not always easy: Wanda Maximoff's version is the Scarlett Wench and she appears in #4 and in #6. But in #4, she's married to Vizzion, and in #6 she's married to Visionary. Apparently these two stories do not share continuity. So, this does not apply.

This is my point of view, but I understand it can be quite ambitious. I will not start creating lottsa articles on comedy characters before taking the matter to the higher echolons in the Wiki—those are you. Skippy Farlstendoiro 20:03, August 23, 2011 (UTC)

I'd suggest that, unless there is strong evidence to the contrary, you treat all What The stories as taking place on a single reality. Keep in mind that costume changes and even majorish physical ones have all happened to 616 characters (compare the Hulk on any two given years, or Wolverine over the years). Similarly, all the Wolverine versions might be (depending on the level of variation between them) either the same guy who keeps rejigging his name (cf Nextwave's Captain), or similar guys all sharing the same reality (how many Punishers, Hulks, Iron Men, Captain Americas (and similar patriotic types inspired by him) do we have in 616 now?). It'll be simpler to split off an extra TRN page as and when evidence proves that a specific story can't be part of the "main" What The continuity than to create dozens of indivudual reality pages and then merge them when characters return and crossover with one another (as in the Wulvoream / Pulverizer case mentioned). If you don't do that, and assume, for instance, that Vizzion is just Visionary under a slightly different name, then you might as well split the realities for Dr. Deranged, as we know from many existing examples that two characters from different realities can have identical names if they are one another's counterparts, and from what you say, the differences are great enough to allow for this possibility. Lokiofmidgaard 08:45, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

  • In WT#20 page 18, the What The Earth is called "the Humorverse (Where everything is funny)" BUT Larval Earth is called the "Aniverse (where everyone is a talking animal)":
Quote1 Ah, I see the Humorverse (where everything is funny) is merging with the Aniverse (where everyone is a talking animal)!' Quote2
--Negative Forbush Man[src]
This quote from WT#20 page 18 suggests that, if the What The--!? Universe is unique, then its name is "the Humorverse (where everything is funny)".
Also, that is a story featuring Milk and Cookies, who had been assigned a specific Earth number in this wiki. I think we can assume now that this is the number of the Humorverse, and I can work from the idea that most stories in WT happen in the Humorverse - except for those who have important changes which would affect continuity (such as killing all the characters, WT#24, or contradicting other stories, WT#19) and those where all the characters use their Earth-616 names (which I still don't know where to fit in).
A number of Earth-616 characters will have several counterparts on the Humorverse (Ghost Rider becomes Ghost Writer and Toast Writer, and sometimes both Writer and Toasty appear in the same story), but I think I can start working on this idea and updating the Wiki - as soon as I finish with my current Aniverse updates. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 19:06, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

Last Man on Earth

What is the Reality of the story 'The Last Man on Earth', appearing on Amazing Adult Fantasy Vol 1 7? --DoNConoscente 11:30, October 2, 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't appear to have one. Could use a TRN. --Spencerz 13:04, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Appendix Overload!!!

Jeez, the Marvel Appendix [1] updated all kinds of realities. A lot of these TRNs are listed with (semi)official numbers now. This page needs some help now! Zakor1138 04:05, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Noted... I will try to work on this as possible and I will alert the other admins to this as well so that we can clean up what we can. In the meantime, if you see anything that needs to be changed specifically, please let us know either here or on our message walls. That way we can grab those immediately after verifying. :) --M1shawhan 07:02, December 16, 2011 (UTC)
Isn't just a fansite? How are their numbers any more official than our TRNs? NetSpiker (talk) 01:22, September 10, 2012 (UTC)
In a technical sense, yes, The Appendix is a very in-depth fan site. The reason we use it for official things is because it is a fansite run and maintained by a number of current and former handbook and index contributors. And when it comes to the reality numbers, the numbers at the Appendi, because they are created by handbook writers, are then incorrperated into Marvel's official listing. We just cut out the waiting period. --Spencerz (talk) 03:35, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Marvel Online

I'm just posting for reference sake. I removed Marvel Online from the TRN200 slot simply because it would be impossible to use a reality for an online game. Everyone with a fan-made character would want a page, and being an online game, there would be very little, if any, constructed storyline, meaning it would be a waste. There's no reason it can't have a game article, but there's no need (as of now) for a TRN. --Spencerz 08:44, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

Every game takes place in one reality or another. If you are worried about custom characters, we don't have to have articles on custom characters (we shouldn't anyway). We could still have articles on the official Marvel characters that appear in the game, like what the DC Database did with DC Universe Online. SeanWheeler 15:30, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

But are there going to be actual plots for these characters? Histories? Or will it be like the Super Hero Squad Online game, where there are vague plots for justifying the villains, but nothing for the heroes? Characters shouldn't have pages simply because they exist, but because there's a reason for people to know about them, and just existing isn't really a reason. Something like that can be a note or a category.
--GrnMarvl14 23:51, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

Earth-TRN124 aka Earth-11045 aka Deathlok Nation

In Marvel Comics, time travel usually causes new timelines to be created, rather than changes to existing timelines. But there are exceptions. The Deathloks from the future in Uncanny X-Force #5-7 were apparently erased from existence after their creator was killed in the present. This indicates that they were from the actual future of Earth-616 and not an alternate Earth. NetSpiker (talk) 04:44, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

We consider all Marvel desicions to be canon here. The reality number that the Future Deathloks where given is a number derived by Marvel, and therefore it is in fact a seperate reality (even though it admittedly makes less sense than your interpretation.) --Spencerz (talk) 03:39, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Marvel: Avengers Alliance

A request for temporary number for Marvel: Avengers Alliance? Mckrongs 04:43, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

Lego Marvel Super Heroes

So what should the reality number be for the recently announced LEGO Marvel Super Heroes? SeanWheeler (talk) 20:16, January 19, 2013 (UTC)

Marvel Heroes

Can we TRN Marvel Heroes (MMO), since there is a release date for June 4, 2013? SeanWheeler (talk) 21:37, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

TRNs For Video Games

I think we don't need some video game TRNs. Most video games are easily fit on Earth-616, for example 2000's Spider-Man video game series and almost all these old atari video games, (except Punisher games, because in these games anyone dies like Kingpin or Jigsaw, this games is impossible to fit to the 616 universe.) The Amazing Spider-Man vs Kingpin video game has some reality designations, but all designations are for bad endings. But Marvunapp doesn't give a designation for good ending, because it's Earth-616. Why are we skip video games. Why aren't these fit into 616 countinity. And why Spider-Man: Total Mayhem can't fit into Ultimate countinity. And we actually should TRNs for movie video games. (Except 2005 Punisher video game and 2003 Hulk video game). Most movie games are impossible to fit into the actual movie countunity. For example Spider-Man 2 movie's final battle and this film's video game version is completely different. And also I didn't count this video game's gameboy and PC version. All of these games has a completely different story. (Sorry If I make a grammar mistake, I'm not American)--Primestar3 (talk) 20:27, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Alternate TRNs for Marvel vs. Capcom

Marvel vs. Capcom has no story, so why are there now new TRNs for Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 and Origins? Seriously, giving remakes to games that have no story whatsover is a waste of TRNs. They totally fit in Earth-30847. SeanWheeler (talk) 02:40, September 21, 2014 (UTC)

Updating the List

I've noticed that the list of TRNs is out-of-date in that some of these realities have since been given official designations while other recent unnamed realities haven't gotten TRNs. Should we do something about this? (Jimmy.robinson.5099 (talk) 21:30, January 28, 2016 (UTC))

If some of the TRNs in the list have been given an official designation, you can help by adding a move tag to the article of said TRN (writting {{Rename|Earth-XXXXX}} on top of the page).
Regarding the creation of TRNs: We've gotten a bit more strict, because a lot of users used to create TRNs and ended up doing little to nothing, so the TRN list was clotted by useless realities. You can present in the forum the proposal to create a new TRN, as long as you work on it.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 21:46, January 28, 2016 (UTC)

Marvel Avengers Academy mobile game

So, there is this new mobile game called "Marvel Avengers Academy". Should we give it a TRN? :) AKA Wiccan (talk) 09:39, February 10, 2016 (UTC)

If effort is put in the creation of the pages for the characters of the game, I wouldn't see why not.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 17:21, February 10, 2016 (UTC)

Moving list of TRNs

List of current TRNs in use should be moved to main namespace so this page would show only categories. It's confusing to have a long list before category listing. Technically, this page should be moved and category recreated. —Mrkermit (talk) 20:49, March 26, 2016 (UTC)

Heroes United, Crossovers

Can you give TRN numbers to Heroes United cartoons and Transformers: Crossovers toyline?:The preceding unsigned comment was added by Megatronus Prime Decepticon (talk • contribs).

The Heroes United movies could get a TRN. On the other hand, the Transformers toyline belongs to Transformers, so it's technically out of our "jurisdiction."
But, in order to allow a TRN to be made, we need the certainty that the TRN is going to be put in good use. Character pages for the TRN need to be created and have enough information, including properly written and cited history text.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 19:20, April 9, 2016 (UTC)
Wow...I'm surprised it's taken THIS long for a Heroes United TRN to be made. I get that most fans probably didn't like or watch it, but dangit that's ONE job. =P *sips h̶i̶p̶s̶t̶e̶r̶ Agents of SMASH fan cup* --BlindmelonKen (talk) 19:23, April 9, 2016 (UTC)BlindmelonKen


I think Spidey Vol 1 needs a TRN. Issue 5 mentions the TV show Game of Thrones - which of course didn't exist when Peter Parker was at school. The technology is also current. It cannot be set in the past of 616 and therefore must be an unnamed new reality. Digifiend (talk) 23:23, April 27, 2016 (UTC)

There's no question that it's an alternate reality, as evidenced by the fact that Gwen and Harry did not attend Midtown High School in Earth-616. I'd be in favor of a TRN if someone were interested in dedicating the time and effort to create and develop the characters articles such that they're not merely a bunch of stubs. -- Annabell (talk) 23:59, April 27, 2016 (UTC)

Earth-TRN534 = Earth-TRN536 transitioned

When I first added the TRNs, I had no full idea how Marvel alternate universes worked. I think it's clear that after Maestro was cured that what transpired, that future morph into a new one (similar to what happened in Earth-80920.)

Is there any way to delete TRN534 without messing up the order, or does it matter? --BlindmelonKen (talk) 19:40, May 1, 2016 (UTC)BlindmelonKen

Just take a moment to please explain on Talk:Earth-TRN354 and Talk:Earth-TRN356 why you think they should be merged, so that others familiar with the realities can participate in the discussion. -- Annabell (talk) 19:54, May 1, 2016 (UTC)
I agree with BlindmelonKen --Noam N. J. (talk) 16:25, 15 June, 2016 (UTC)

Agent Web

Hey everyone, I was hoping I could create a TRN for a reality that made a cameo in Ultimate Spider-Man (Animated Series) Season 4 12. Ismazing (talk) 20:55, July 9, 2016 (UTC)

2 TRN Requests

Hey folks, I'm just wondering if I can get two TRN numbers?

  1. In Nightwatch Vol 1] issues 8 to 10, a character of Warbringer appears; he is a time traveller from the "future," an older version of Nolan Morelle (Earth-616). I know, I know, all of Nightwatch is in question due to an arc in She-Hulk but I'd like to build the profile nonetheless.
  2. In Scarlet Witch Vol 1 1, we meet the characters Eleyn (Earth-616) and Gargan. It isn't clear in issue 1 that these are characters from alternate realities but further in the story, it is explained that Lore (Multiverse) travels from one reality to another. So I'm hoping for a TRN for those two characters as well.

Thanks. Edlicious (talk) 23:58, August 3, 2016 (UTC)

TRN for 2005 Punisher game, Empire of the Dead and MAX Zombie comic books

  • I think The Punisher game, MAX's series about Zombie (Zombie, Zombie: Simon Garth) and Empire of the Dead should get TRN numbers. Punisher game really doesn't fit into Earth-58732 continuity; Zombie is an Marvel property, and his story in MAX series was re-imagined — those comics take place in another universe, not Earth-616 or Earth-200111. MarvelBoy2002 12:33 (MSK), September 7 2016
    • Punisher game is supposed to be a direct sequel of the movie, so it is set in the same universe...--Shabook (talk) 11:16, September 7, 2016 (UTC)
    • I know... But this game contains a lot of inconsistencies. --MarvelBoy2002 (talk) 14:49, September 7, 2016 (MSK)
    • Is Empire of the Dead owned by Marvel or George Romero? Because if it's owned by Romero, it doesn't need a TRN... Shadzane 💀 (talk) 22:48, May 1, 2017 (UTC)

Request to restore Earth-TRN002

Requesting to restore Earth-TRN002 (X-Men II: Fall of the Mutants) now that it has a true reality designation (Earth-90613) thanks to the Marvel Appendix giving it a designation. Zakor1138 (talk) 18:42, November 17, 2016 (UTC)

I've restored it and the only two pages related to it that I could find, Dazzler and Jean Grey. I also renamed them to their proper designation. They can be worked on now.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 20:07, November 17, 2016 (UTC)

TRN request for TL;DR

It's a new web series published by Marvel.--MysteryScooby (Talk) 10:58, November 18, 2016 (UTC)

This web series is simply a summary of stories from the comics in video format, so I don't see that's necessary.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 19:27, November 17, 2016 (UTC)

TRN Requests

Can anyone assign a TRN for the Uncanny X-Men Annual Vol 3 #1 2099 reality? There are already two characters: Danny Warburton and Doll Warburton. They had their reality mislabeled. Oh and the future in Uncanny Avengers Vol 3 #2 that Cable visited. I'll be willing to edit them. --Fictional (talk) 03:43, December 16, 2016 (UTC)

Spider-Man Free-To-Play Games (marvelkids)

I want to request a TRN for the reality where the Marvel Kids Spider-Man mini games take place. At first I thought it was set on Earth-12041 but there are many inconsistencies. Here's the only page we have about this universe Ismazing (talk) 20:58, January 9, 2017 (UTC)

I don't find those games to be noteworthy at all.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 21:21, January 9, 2017 (UTC)
So, we just say it's set on Earth-12041? Ismazing (talk) 01:55, January 10, 2017 (UTC)

TRN Request - The Framework

In an interview with Entertainment Weekly about the most recent episode of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., showrunners Maurissa Tancharoen and Jed Whedon describe the Framework, a simulated reality created by Aida and Dr. Radcliffe with the Darkhold, as an alternate reality. I believe it warrants a TRN, although it might be necessary to wait for the next episode to veify.
- LoveWaffle (talk) 08:08, February 22, 2017 (UTC)

As I stated on my edit of that most recent episode, for our purposes I personally believe the virtual reality is akin to an illusion or dream, in other words, the Framework is a construct like the Matrix, and thus don't think a TRN necessary. -- Annabell (talk) 08:47, February 22, 2017 (UTC)
I do not believe that alone justifies it not getting a TRN. Earths 5311, 7711, 55921 and 961116 are fictions within the context of another reality. The Framework appears to operate in a similar way.
- LoveWaffle (talk) 18:20, February 22, 2017 (UTC)
Hear me out. Yes, it's (so far) a virtual reality. But it was taken from its original form (a training simulation) to an actual world by AIDA using the Darkhold, which contains magical formulas that have already been shown capable of interdimensional travel. In fact, every other useage of the Darkhold has involved interdimensional travel. Now we have an "ideal world" that can be "travelled" to simply by uploading your consciousness.
And on the Marvel Studios subreddit, it's been compared to both House of M and Age of X, while I've noticed some similarities to Heroes Reborn. In the sense that it's an alternate reality crafted by using people of a different reality altogether (the MCU citizens being used to create this new world).
So I think a case could be made that it actually is an alternate reality of sorts. Edward Zachary Sunrose (talk) 02:24, February 25, 2017 (UTC)
In handbook terms, it can be considered that the Agents of Hydra thing is a reality that manifested into the MCU through the Framework, in the same way that dreams or even hypothetical scenarios laid out by characters can be somehow classified as alternate realities. Due to the nature of the Framework as a manifestation of this universe rather than the reality itself, I believe that the characters trapped inside it don't need to have pages created for their supposed Hydra-fied counterparts. In essence, the Phil Coulson in the Framework would still be 199999 Phil Coulson.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 22:29, February 25, 2017 (UTC)

At this point, I would argue that at the very least, we should have separate articles to distinguish between things that are sufficiently different in the Framework, like HYDRA, or Grant Ward, even if it isn't considered a separate reality from the MCU, albeit one linked to it. Alkonium (talk) 03:45, April 5, 2017 (UTC)

Exactly. I agree completely. It's like Age of Le Fay, House of M or Counter-Earth, where it's still the same characters (MCU in this case rather than 616), but the world around them is a full, new world still partially connected to the world they came from. At the very least, we should make a TRN page for the Framework's reality, and pages for the things that are markedly different/unique to the reality, like Tripp, Bakshi, Ward, Vijay Nadeer, S.H.I.E.L.D., Hope Mackenzie, Alistair Fitz, Project Looking Glass and HYDRA. I don't know how the Wiki goes about deciding what TRN's to give realities, but if we do give the Framework a TRN, may I suggest Earth-TRN415 since we first saw the Framework in its fully realized state in Season 4, Episode 15? Edward Zachary Sunrose (talk) 04:56, May 7, 2017 (UTC)
I'm fairly certain they're assigned the lowest available number since previously assigned numbers can get freed up when their given reality gets an official number. Alkonium (talk) 05:18, May 7, 2017 (UTC)
Numbers are not reassigned or reused, so if it's agreed to give it a TRN, it'd get Earth-TRN632 (unless it becomes unavailable by that time). Personally, I see the consensus is that it should be getting a TRN. Does anybody have any objections?
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 05:30, May 7, 2017 (UTC)
I still believe it's unnecessary. None of it's real, it's an elaborate illusion, and the actual reality is they're standing there with sensors on their temples dreaming in a submarine. -- Annabell (talk) 05:57, May 7, 2017 (UTC)
I think the illusion digitally cast by Aida can be interpreted as a manifestation of this potential TRN. That's what the handbook does with dreams (Earth-6111), hypnosis-induced illusions (Earth-12122) and even hypothetical scenarios imagined by people (Earth-14219 and Earth-51109).
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 06:15, May 7, 2017 (UTC)
That seems like it requires an awful lot of speculation and breaks down logically when you can't explain to me where Coulson from the alleged TRN went when he jumped and simply woke up in Earth-199999 with not only his memories but also all the memories of the dream. Are you henceforth alleging Coulson is now both Coulsons within a single body? -- Annabell (talk) 06:44, May 7, 2017 (UTC)
Read ADour's post from February. There's only the one Coulson. The characters and organizations effected by the potential new TRN would be the ones native to the Framework (i.e. the ones not brought in from Earth-199999).
- LoveWaffle (talk) 06:54, May 7, 2017 (UTC)
And that explanation logically breaks down when you ask yourself if Jemma-199999 wasn't brought into the virtual location yet, then who was shot and put six feet under? The explanation that covers both the Coulson and Jemma scenarios is that it's simply an elaborate trick, not reality. -- Annabell (talk) 07:11, May 7, 2017 (UTC)
The Jemma Simmons that was shot was the Jemma Simmons native to the Framework.
- LoveWaffle (talk) 07:18, May 7, 2017 (UTC)
But you just said there was no Coulson native to the Framework, so which is it? You can't logically have it both ways, either there are two Jemmas in one body and two Coulsons in one body or there's one of each because there is no other reality, it's virtual. -- Annabell (talk) 07:38, May 7, 2017 (UTC)
Arguably, it could be considered similar to what happened with Wolverine in X-Men: Days of Future Past. The Wolverine of Earth-10005 took over the body of his Earth-TRN414 counterpart temporarily in the 1970's, and then did so again, but permanently in the 2020's. Alkonium (talk) 20:29, May 7, 2017 (UTC)
Yet that's not what they're presenting here, they assert there's only one Coulson. -- Annabell (talk) 20:50, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

There is a precedent, Earth-10710 was a simultation of a future where Hope Summers destroyed the world, and was used by Bastion to trick the X-Club into creating a cure for the X-Gene. While I normally think those kinds of realities doesn't warrant a page except if a reality number is given, both option seems okay to me (as long as the characters and teams of the Framework have their own pages, whether Hydra (Framework) (Earth-199999) or Hydra (Earth-TRN???)), but it would require a clear policy on how to deal with the Framework version of MCU characters present into the framework (such policy would/could apply on Age of X, Heroes Reborn or House of M).Undoniel (talk) 12:52, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

There was a Jemma Simmons that existed within the Framework independently of her Earth-199999 counterpart, whereas Coulson was there from the outset. There are two Jemmas and only one Coulson because that's exactly what the text of the series presents us with.
That being said, any ambiguity regarding how many Jemmas or Coulsons there are is not an argument against the creation of a TRN for the Framework. It's just one potential issue that would arise if we do.
- LoveWaffle (talk) 16:09, May 7, 2017 (UTC)
You might not like my point, but it's still valid. Several of them demonstrated that they retain the history of the Framework coding as memories after waking up, thus if you claim it was an alternate reality, then please explain where their counterparts went when they hopped in and why they disappeared when they hopped out, otherwise they logically must now be presented as gestalt characters henceforth, two-in-one, if there's allegedly the minds of two realities existing in one body. The Melinda May presently in Earth-199999 killed Katya yet has memories of the coded illusion where she let her live. -- Annabell (talk) 19:50, May 7, 2017 (UTC)
Annabel, I don't think your argument holds much against having a reality for the Framework. Everything you're mentioning has already happened in House of M and Age of X (characters returning to their reality with new memories), and as I said, we've already seen simulations and lies being realities. If we handle the situation like for those other realities, basically, the Framework (I'll say FM now) version include all the fake past, then the MCU version enter the game when it is really introduced into the system/reality, but in the FW version's corpse/place.Undoniel (talk) 21:09, May 7, 2017 (UTC)
Tell me which part you disagree with:
  • The Framework is first and foremost a physical object on a submarine in Earth-199999, a "magical mainframe" if you will.
  • When characters are "in" the Framework, their bodies remain in Earth-199999, but their consciousnesses enter the virtual reality which exists as coding generated and housed within the "magical mainframe" on a submarine in Earth-199999.
  • Other characters are coding which is native to the "magical mainframe" as demonstrated when they momentarily became pixels whenever anyone jumped through the "back door" to Earth-199999.
  • If someone torpedoed and utterly destroyed the submarine in Earth-199999, then without the "magical mainframe" which produces and houses the coding, the Framework's virtual reality would cease to be generated.
Ergo the Framework exists wholly within Earth-199999 and is not an alternate realty requiring a TRN, rather something akin to the Counter-Earth pocket dimension that Franklin Richards created post-Onslaught, which exists within Earth-616, not separate from it. -- Annabell (talk) 23:21, May 7, 2017 (UTC)
Pretty much the same as Earth-10710, and it's was both a reality (as a reality number was given) and a virtual reality (cf the comics) (just like AoX and HoM were initially alterations of Earth-616 with new pasts for their inhabitants).Undoniel (talk) 00:13, May 8, 2017 (UTC)
So from what I've seen and what I believe, no we shouldn't have a TRN for it, it's a virtual reality, unless it somehow becomes an actual reality it should count as being part of the MCU's reality, this is specially true after what happened in the latest episode. At most if people really want to differentiate their stories just create a Grant Ward (Framework) (Earth-199999).(SunGodKizaru (talk) 15:00, May 8, 2017 (UTC))
To be noted: The framework was "Rebooted" every time a new host was linked in it. There was one framework when only May was in it. And it was rebooted when the rest of the guys entered. So if you make a TRN out of it, you should make a TRN out of every reboot, right? Jorgito me lo pinto (talk) 18:40, May 9, 2017 (UTC)
Prior to the improvements made to it using the Darkhold, it was only a basic simulation. While I can see your reasoning, the Framework is only alluded to in each state, and we don't know the order in which Coulson, May, Mack, Fitz, and Mace were loaded into it.Alkonium (talk) 20:47, May 9, 2017 (UTC)
  • A virtual reality can also be a reality. I won't add again my example. But it depends on "what would makes it a reality". If we stick to the idea "something not presented as a reality cannot become one except if given a designation", then we should not make it one. In the other case, if we don't stick to that principle, then there's already cases of realities/virtual realities, and it wouldn't seems odd the Framework would have its own reality page.
  • Additionally or alternatively to Alkonium's point, the reboot can be handled as we do for the Ragnarok (or what we currently do for Earth-616 who is considered on this wikia as a next version of itself): another section (that was also true for House of M: Wanda at least once deleted someone in and from the past of House of M).Undoniel (talk) 21:04, May 9, 2017 (UTC)

“It was only a simulation, an illusion created by Radcliff.” – A.I.D.A.

Direct quote from The Return. I rest my case. -- Annabell (talk) 05:15, May 10, 2017 (UTC)

The same episode also establishes that by using the Darkhold, Aida can convert the entire MCU into the Framework. That doesn't suggest that it exists only as a simulation. In fact, if it was solely just computer code, why would it then be able to inhabit the real world of the MCU? The Darkhold has exclusively been shown as a means to transport. Matter from other dimensions (Eli), memories into technology (LMD's), and now bodies from "digital" worlds ("Ophelia"), as well as transposing the Framework with the MCU. So why would the sole exception be hooking up "real" people into a "fictional" reality? The Framework's reality exists. The Framework itself is just the conduit into that reality. Also, at the end of the day, I think the creator's intentions override our opinions, and as stated in the very first post of this discussion, both creators of AoS did outright state that the Framework is indeed an alternate reality. This would not be the first time a decision was made on the Wiki based on a creator's comments. Felicity Hardy (Earth-2149), Ethel Tomago (Earth-14123) and San Francisco among other pages have been updated or created because of information from creators, so I don't see why the Framework would be any different. Edward Zachary Sunrose (talk) 18:45, May 10, 2017 (UTC)
"It was a simulation" - Doctor Nemesis
X-Men: Blind Science #1, yet Earth-10710 exist as a reality.
On those kinds of cases, they can be 2 things at once:
  • From Earth-616 point of view, they can be simulations (Earth-10710), alterations from the 616 (House of M, Age of X), etc.
  • But from those altered realities and virtual realities, they are their own realities, with their own past before the "real" (meaning "616" or "MCU") characters are actually in it. ADour said it better than I could.
Again, I'm pretty neutral between both options (in fact, without a reality designation given by Marvel or some mention that this universe exist as an alternate reality, I'm not sure it should have a reality page), but it's the arguments used that aren't valid: A reality was in fact virtual and in the main reality doesn't prevent it from being also an alternate reality.Undoniel (talk) 08:46, May 10, 2017 (UTC)
I would like to clarify my point. I agree with Annabell, the Framework itself isn't a reality. However, based on the handbook's interpretations of dreams, hypothetical scenarios, etc, I believe a TRN could be warranted because it's very likely in handbook terms the Framework is a manifestation of an alternate universe. Probably the best example is Earth-10710, as brought up by Undoniel. Its appendix entry describes that it was glimpsed via artificial scenario. The artificial scenario wasn't the reality itself, but a representation of it.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 11:01, May 10, 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, I used the shortcut "having a page=being a reality", but as I said, your explanation is clearer on why a reality page would be appropriate in our case (not the only solution, but not a wrong one).Undoniel (talk) 22:08, May 10, 2017 (UTC)

So, the Framework has yet to have a page even made, and I am willing to start getting to work on it, but I am hesitant to work on it while we've yet to make a definitive decision on this topic. Right now, it seems like the argument is roughly split on a TRN, so I have no problem with making the page as an item page. But I would like to see this argument settled. Even if it is deemed to not be a reality, is it still technically a location? The episode pages featuring the Framework list it as a location. Edward Zachary Sunrose (talk) 01:45, June 18, 2017 (UTC)

Do it Bro. Jorgito me lo pinto (talk) 02:13, June 19, 2017 (UTC)
As an item, as a location or did we decide on giving it a TRN? Edward Zachary Sunrose (talk) 23:49, June 20, 2017 (UTC)
It's an item first and foremost, so I think it's safe to create an article as such and it can be converted later if community consensus otherwise becomes more clear. -- Annabell (talk) 00:13, June 21, 2017 (UTC)
Awesome. I'll get started on it right away.Edward Zachary Sunrose (talk) 23:43, June 22, 2017 (UTC)
I only recently watched through Season 4, and very recently watched through it a second time, so I guess I should give my 2 cents on it. I'm for treating the Framework as an item, while the characters and such in it are given a TRN, the reality that Framework represents draws from. It's in the same way how characters from different realities appeared in the domains of Battleworld (Latverion) during Secret Wars, but not in their actual realities. But my question is if how we deal with deceased characters and such, that die in the Framework but might be still alive in the TRN-reality (like Alistair Fitz and Jeffrey Mace). And should the appearances of the 199999-characters that are connected to the Framework be categorised as that, or the TRN-Framework equivalents?
KalKent (Anton) (Earth-1218) (talk) 00:04, June 23, 2017 (UTC)

Reality for the upcoming Spider-Man cartoon

Since it's been confirmed a few times by people at Marvel Animation that it does not take place in Earth-12041, can we create a TRN for it? --BlindmelonKen (talk) 00:01, April 9, 2017 (UTC)BlindmelonKen

I agree with this if that's the case, but we should at the very least wait until the first episode of it actually airs. The current planned date is around mid-2017 (around the time Spider-Man: Homecoming is released theatrically essentially), so we still have to wait like with the show Legion when the official date is before we create a TRN for it.
KalKent (Anton) (Earth-1218) (talk) 00:09, April 9, 2017 (UTC)
Created it.
KalKent (Anton) (Earth-1218) (talk) 01:53, August 12, 2017 (UTC)

TRN of the Telltale Guardians of the Galaxy video game

Just a heads up that the first episode of Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy: The Telltale Series releases tomorrow at the time of writing this, and since it's a Telltale game all about making choices which can change the outcome of the game, I think it's safe to say a TRN would be required for the game.
KalKent (Anton) (Earth-1218) (talk) 16:16, April 17, 2017 (UTC)

TRN for Future Man

As brought up in Talk:Future Man (Earth-616), I brought up the suggestion of creating a TRN for that character's future reality, since he's described as being "from the year One Million AD of an unspecified potential future reality".
KalKent (Anton) (Earth-1218) (talk) 10:16, April 30, 2017 (UTC)

TRN for Unidentified Reality where Rhodey Rhodes married Carol Danvers

In the comic Civil War II: Choosing Sides #2, we are shown 4 realities of alternate Rhodey Rhodes', which were all numbered except one, where Rhodey married Carol Danvers. I suggest we might as well create a TRN for that reality.
KalKent (Anton) (Earth-1218) (talk) 20:31, May 1, 2017 (UTC)

Marvel's Ant-Man shorts and WatXM's Age of Apocalypse reality

So I made a point here a few times about how I think the recent Ant-Man animated shorts could potentially have its own TRN. I don't think just going by the fact that Josh Keaton is voicing Ant-Man in the shorts and the fourth season of Marvel's Avengers Assemble is enough to credit them co-existing in the same continuity.

Secondly...I'm unsure as to why the Apocalypse reality in Wolverine and the X-Men is the same as it's DoFP reality - Earth-80920. That was certainly not the case with those timelines in the 90s X-Men animated series. Plus, the Marvel Appendix only quotes the Sentinel-dominated future as the basis Earth-80920. It doesn't make sense to me unless it was never once brought into question by the time TRNs became a thing here. Could we make the Apocalypse reality it's own TRN? --BlindmelonKen (talk) 00:33, July 6, 2017 (UTC)BlindmelonKen

Deadpool Kills The Marvel Universe Again

I think we should decide on a TRN for this reality. The mini-series is about to wrap up soon and it'd be nice to celebrate the ending with pages for all of the victims. Edward Zachary Sunrose (talk) 05:41, September 21, 2017 (UTC)

I still firmly believe we should give this mini-series a TRN until we get a universe designation. Edward Zachary Sunrose (talk) 04:30, February 23, 2018 (UTC)

Marvel Puzzle Quest's Captain Carter

I think we should give her a TRN, either belonging to the game as a whole, or belonging to herself. Considering she has now crossed over into other games and is even coming to the comics, I think the original depiction of Captain Carter should get her own page, which I don't believe can happen without a reality designation of some kind. Edward Zachary Sunrose (talk) 04:33, February 23, 2018 (UTC)


Can somebody assign TRNs to Iron Lad, Valkyrie, and King's universes since they won't be receiving official designations in the foreseeable future?
--SuperFan95 (talk) 07:37, September 16, 2018 (UTC)

I can assign the TRN if someone were legitimately interested in dedicating the necessary time and effort to create and develop the associated articles such that they're not merely a bunch of stubs. -- Annabell (talk) 08:37, September 16, 2018 (UTC)
Would I be allowed?
--SuperFan95 (talk) 15:26, September 16, 2018 (UTC)
Sure, give me a few minutes and I'll get to that so you can start creating and developing the articles then. -- Annabell (talk) 19:35, September 16, 2018 (UTC)

B Sides and Two Player (Cloak & Dagger)

Should we assign TRNs for "Perfect Life", "Fractured Family", "All Alone" and the "Duel to D'Spayre" video game? I know the first three were illusions and the fourth is a video game, but we have precedent for similar cases. (Earth-16127 is also a video game appearing inside a story, like "Duel to D'Spayre", while Earth-10508 is a virtual reality where Hulk was trapped, similar to Tandy being trapped in D'Spayre's fictional hallucination realities).Edward Zachary Sunrose (talk) 01:33, August 3, 2019 (UTC)

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