Two things I'm curious about.
- Once a reality is named, what will we do? I figure that it would be best just move everything to the new number, and then just "retire" the TRN. Because I can see reusing the TRN's becoming a large mess. On this page, maybe just strike through the entry, and put in parenthesis (Officially Renamed: Earth-#####).
- On the multiverse page, we have a section named "Unofficial Reality Numbers". Since these TRNs, and those Unofficial numbers, are not officially named by Marvel, would it be protocol to change all those Unofficial Numbers into TRNs?
--Spencerz 01:38, February 20, 2011 (UTC)
- Your first point sounds good. Your second, I'd suggest adding move tags to the appropriate pages and listing those reality numbers here as taken. There's also an Unofficial Reality Number category running around (or was). Should take that into account.
- --GrnMarvl14 02:02, February 20, 2011 (UTC)
- Alright then. And I have seen that category floating around once or twice. It's a little confusing to me, since the last time I saw it, it contained maybey five realities, most of which were listed as official realities on the Multiverse page.(Earth-123456/the Super Hero Squad reality is the one that really jumps to mind). So I'll scour the Marvel universe listing on the Marvel site before I tinker with those.
But I'll get started with those move tags later tonight, and try to get all of that lined up.
- --Spencerz 02:17, February 20, 2011 (UTC)
Revenge of Shinobi?
Should the Genesis game The Revenge of Shinobi be included? Marvel allowed Sega to keep their Spider-Man character and even has the copyright notice in the game. Zakor1138 18:07, April 11, 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that we cover third party/unofficial appearences like Revenge of Shinobi. --Spencerz 21:34, April 12, 2011 (UTC)
- Hmm. I thought it was "kinda" official, since the copyright notice was there. You're probably right though. Zakor1138 21:10, April 13, 2011 (UTC)
Movie based games
Should most of the movie based games be listed in their own realities? Like the Spider-Man movie games, or X-Men Origins: Wolverine game? Their storylines are quite different. (Film Spider-Man 1's Norman Osborn tells Peter not to tell Harry, but the movie game's Norman tells Peter to tell Harry he's sorry, etc.) The 2003 Hulk game and X-Men: The Official Game can exist in the films universe since Hulk's game is a sequel and X-Men: TOG takes place between X2 and X-Men: The Last Stand. Zakor1138 21:17, April 13, 2011 (UTC)
- We've actually had discussions about this before, and the conclusion we decided upon was that Film and/or TV Series tie-ins like video games and novels should be left in the film's universe unless there are extraordinary differences to make them leave the film continuity (or if Marvel states that a tie-in doesn't belong, such is the case with X2: Wolverine's Revenge), since the tie-in's creators made them with the intention of being in said film's continuity. --Spencerz 23:44, April 13, 2011 (UTC)
Now, from what we've been going with, a reality shown in a story panel, or in an other media representation that is not clearly defined a) in the story, b) in an official Marvel index, or c) at MarvUnnApp can be added to the list. As well, a number of other instances usually end up on the list as well (see topics below)
While this has been an effective method, I believe that Farlstendoiro brings up a good point: we need some basic rules in order to keep the list from becoming cluttered, or filling up with a number of listings that don't nessacarily need to be there.
Some topics I thought of, and would like opinions on:
- In-Universe other media: The reason this conversation came about was over a film script, and television show, written about Earth-616 Thor, based fictionalized versions of Earth-616 Thor's adventures. Now if the consensus stands, these do not qualify for TRN status, as they're not true realities. However, the Kitty's Fairytale argument from the above link begs the question, where do we draw the line on when a dream or other idea simply stays an idea, or becomes a reality?
- Time Travel: Most, if not all, cases of time travel to any unndesignated reality would normally qualify said reality for inclusion on the TRN list. Opinions? Or possible exclusions?
- Home worlds: Currently, if a character or team appears, and is either a) not from a designated reality or b) does not have their home reality disclosed, they are often added to the list. Examples include Earth-TRN021 (Home of Hatch-22), Earth-TRN038 (Home to Boy-Bob Banner), Earth-TRN050 (Marquis of Death), Earth-TRN113 (Subject X), and Earth-TRN020, Earth-TRN031, Earth-TRN032, and Earth-TRN033 (homeworlds of various Future Exiles members). The question is does the appearance of a character warrant a TRN-designated home world, even if their home world never appears?
- Video Games: One of the more complicated issues. It's not a big secret that Marvel index listings and the MarvUnnApp often ignore most video games, with exceptions made for series, and bigger, often newer, titles. Therefore, older titles seem to have been left out of the mix. Now, it is assumed by the Index and App writers that, unless there are major contradictions, most video games can just be lumped into Earth-616 continuity. However, this creates issues, as these video games have contradicitions amongst themselves. So,
- Do we keep are current system concerning video games, or are there changes we need to make?
- When, if ever, is it acceptable to lump a video game into Earth-616 continuity?
- Do games based of Earth-616 storylines (like Spider-Man & Venom: Maximum Carnage, The Incredible Hulk: The Pantehon Saga, and Avengers in Galactic Storm) automatically fall under 616 continuity?
- And finally, when do games not based on Earth-616 storylines fall into Earth-616 continuity? (As GrnMarvl14 pointed out, Marvel Pinball could qualify, as a seperate reality for what, as far as we can tell, is just pinball tables with character based design)
So, I ask for opinions on these topics and points, and welcome and encourage any other points or suggestions I missed. Hopefully we can establish some regulation for the TRN list. --Spencerz 22:45, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
- As far as the Kitty's Fairy Tale reality goes: That's been confirmed, due to the Bamfs appearing elsewhere, to be an actual reality. It's not a reality solely because of that story, it's a reality because of other appearances by denizens of that reality.
- Time travel is dependent upon where they go, and how that relates to where they started. Certainly, most trips to the past can be assumed to be the same reality (Further Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix Vol 1, for instance). Trips to the future...it depends on what is seen and how that relates to known realities (Layla and Multiple Man going to Earth-1191 during Messiah Complex). But if it's clearly a different reality, or an unknown future, an alternate reality can be assumed.
- Unless you have reason to suspect it's a known reality, then assume it's new. But be careful.
- My point with Marvel Pinball is that if it's just characters on a pinball table, then it's likely not deserving of an alternate reality, or ANY reality. For the same reason you don't create pages for when they appear on band-aids, underwear, or ads. It's marketing, nothing more. As far as games are concerned, I'd say you don't assume it's a new reality unless it contradicts known information.
- --GrnMarvl14 23:31, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
- I think Spencerz meant the Marvel Pinball video game, not real-life pinball games. Zakor1138 04:46, May 12, 2011 (UTC)
Oh those wacky alternate realities (My Take)
Ah the wonderful world of alternate realities, my favorite little play ground to be honest. I just though I'd jump into the conversation and add my ideas based on what I'm seeing here and so on.
I like the TRN numbers, which we should adopt as a standard for when neither Marvel nor any of the other official sources haven't given a reality number to something yet. We can always move it later if (and when) it gets an official designation. I was never a fan of those long "Earth-Iron Man Look Into a Kleanex After He Sneezes In It" designations because they're long and cumbersome. The TRN's give us a bit of some autonomy to add material that the official sources haven't gotten a chance to catalogue.
As for what official or "unofficial" universe numbers.... Since most of the unofficial numbers come from the Unofficial Appendix... Well I think we should consider them gospel anyway because for the most part, because the Appendix guys are the ones who do the Official Handbooks and Indexes and so on anyway. Going through appendix of alternate realities in the Official Marvel Handbook hard covers they pretty much just took the universe designations they had on the Appendix for years and made them official.
Video games.... Hew... Well Video Games... And I think Marvel novels and other non-comic book fiction should lump in this category as well... With the novels, I know that the Handbook states that they should all be considered part of alternate realities unless it's specified that they happened on Earth-616. Video games, I think should be the same thing as well. Marvel is giving designations to their current Marvel games. Which makes sense..
However, there are all those old video games that contradict themselves and don't fit with any continuity. Which makes for some messy organization. However, I think therer is a solution here: I direct you to Earth-7642, what has been termed as "Earth-Crossover". Every cross-company crossover that has Marvel characters interacting with other companies characters without any sort of means of inter-dimensional travel (IE: It appears that they exist in the same universe) were all lumped into this one reality.
I think when it comes to the old Marvel games we should adopt a similar method using or TRN indexing. If one reality index to lump them in still doesn't work, perhaps we could do it by console? I can only really attest to the 16-bit era of gaming and I don't really recall these games having much sense of continuity so we could lump them together in that sense.
Nausiated 00:22, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
- I really like that idea for the video games. Or at least for the ones that contradict Earth-616 events. With novels, I'd rather we just not worry about reality numbers there unless the reality is known.
- --GrnMarvl14 00:31, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
- So, the video game idea seems nice (and it would save SOOOO much time in adding all those charcters to disabmiguation pages and the like), but, a) Many older games were released across numerous platforms, and b) we kinda shot ourselves in the foot here if we decided to change this, since we have like 30+ video game-based TRN realities.
- And novels...I'm all for being thourogh and covering everything (hell, we covered the Spider-Man musical), but until someone brought up novels, I didn't know they really existed. I kinda feel like nobody would be looking for a novel, and would only know they were here by stumbling across an article by chance. But, I don't see a problem on creating and covering novelizations of movies and the such, since they already have an established reality. --Spencerz 01:06, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
- And that would fall under the "unless the reality is known" portion. It's not a problem with creating pages with them, it's a problem with creating appearance links. You can create the page without linking to any appearances, after all.
- --GrnMarvl14 02:17, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
So, in regaurds to in-universe publications, someone created Earth-TRN152, about a cartoon starring James Rhodes about ultimate Iron Man. Not sure how to handle it, as it's got it's own limited series. --Spencerz 15:54, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, that was I. I would have left it alone, save for the fact that some characters made their only appearances in those two mini-series and it was recently revealed that the whole thing was just fiction within the Ultimate Universe. Rather than delete those characters, since they never actually existed, I figured a new universe to house them was in order.
- Balfro 16:00, April 25, 2011 (UTC)
What The--?! realities
Hi, it's me again. I want to write articles on the characters in the series What The--?! Vol 1. Each issue commonly had several auto-conclusive, humorous short stories that are commonly not intended to have strict continuity, but even then I see these as canon stories presenting new universes, and deserving articles. Some of these stories probably take place in the same universe, if sharing character. For instance, any story featuring Spider-Ham probably take place in Earth-8311, or at least uses Peter Porker (Earth-8311) in a different Universe, but now let's have a look at the original characters, especially if they are being re-used:
My point: Doctor Deranged first appeared in What The #2, and then re-appeared in #4, apparently the same character even if the graphical design was quite different (Hembeck), and even the kind of plot was widely different. So, we can say, "Earth-TMP555555, home of Dr. Deranged."
Now, there are several versions of Wolverine in these series: Wulvoream (#1); Woof'r'eam (#2); Woof'a'eam (#3 and possibly #4 as the story is two-parted); Wrillimean (#6); Wooferine (#7), Wolvie (#9)... In #5, a character also called Wulvoream (like the one in #1) appears sharing a story with the Pulverizer (Pulverizer also appears in a different story in #1 and in #6). I see that Wulvoream from #5 is somehow disimilar to Wulvoream from #1, but it can be understood as an artistic licence more than other thing, and anyway Dr. Deranged changed much more physically; there is no reason to believe that these two characters are different. Thus, Wulvoream shares universe with the Pulverizer. Thus, the Pulverizer shares universe with anyone appearing in Wulvoream's story in #1. Thus, we have an interesting Universe deserving an article.
Not always easy: Wanda Maximoff's version is the Scarlett Wench and she appears in #4 and in #6. But in #4, she's married to Vizzion, and in #6 she's married to Visionary. Apparently these two stories do not share continuity. So, this does not apply.
This is my point of view, but I understand it can be quite ambitious. I will not start creating lottsa articles on comedy characters before taking the matter to the higher echolons in the Wiki—those are you. Skippy Farlstendoiro 20:03, August 23, 2011 (UTC)
I'd suggest that, unless there is strong evidence to the contrary, you treat all What The stories as taking place on a single reality. Keep in mind that costume changes and even majorish physical ones have all happened to 616 characters (compare the Hulk on any two given years, or Wolverine over the years). Similarly, all the Wolverine versions might be (depending on the level of variation between them) either the same guy who keeps rejigging his name (cf Nextwave's Captain), or similar guys all sharing the same reality (how many Punishers, Hulks, Iron Men, Captain Americas (and similar patriotic types inspired by him) do we have in 616 now?). It'll be simpler to split off an extra TRN page as and when evidence proves that a specific story can't be part of the "main" What The continuity than to create dozens of indivudual reality pages and then merge them when characters return and crossover with one another (as in the Wulvoream / Pulverizer case mentioned). If you don't do that, and assume, for instance, that Vizzion is just Visionary under a slightly different name, then you might as well split the realities for Dr. Deranged, as we know from many existing examples that two characters from different realities can have identical names if they are one another's counterparts, and from what you say, the differences are great enough to allow for this possibility. Lokiofmidgaard 08:45, August 31, 2011 (UTC)