I think that we need to hash this out here and now. The facts at the moment are that Marvel has release concept art, and announced the five characters that (for now) will make up the team. However, the film is barely in development, which means that things like casting are far from happening. I know we all are about not jumping the gun, but at the same time, I don't believe t hat listing the five main characters in the appearance section will be a problem. I don't advocate creating articles for them until much more detail is released, but for all intents and purposes, Marvel has said "Hey, this is our team", and it seems counter productive to keep reverting each other over this.
I've asked a few admins to weigh in, but I would like to hope we can discuss this here and come to some sort of agreement. And I'd like to ask everyone not to edit the page until we have this sorted out --Spencerz (talk) 06:07, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Personally I would prefer there were no updates on the cast/locations/vehicles etc and no new pages created until at least the day the movie is released. There was a rather nasty unavoidable spoiler for the Amazing Spider-Man film that appeared in the updates list before the film came out. I'd like to see that sort of thing avoided and that's my main motivation here. My position may seem extreme to some, but it avoids problems down the line. Whatever is decided, I promise not to edit war.--MutantMenace (talk) 06:21, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
- That does seem a bit extreme to me, but at the same time I understand not being spoiled. Either way, I feel that creating articles and updating the appearances is not only ok, but somewhat needed, as we strive to be an encyclopedia, but they need firm and reliable info to back them up. I feel that the last batch of articles created (and deleted) where made of speculation.
- Perhaps we need to make more frequent use of the manually-added Spoiler Tag feature for upcoming movies. I know that having info on the site may ruin it for some people who see info they didn't want to, but we need to realize that:
- We are an encyclopeida, which needs to be as complete as possible
- The site is utilized by users worldwide
- As of late, Marvel has a history of releasing it's movies overseas well before they release them in North America
- As such, if points 2 and 3 apply, it would be counter productive to point 1 to not list info just for the sake of not spoiling things for our North American users.
- However, this rambling circles back to the dispute at hand: I don't feel the having unlinked character names in the appearance section is wrong. Marvel may not be vomiting out info about them, which means we should not be vomiting out articles about them, but they are more or less confirmed for the film. --Spencerz (talk) 06:44, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
- How about instead of listing unlinked characters, this is what we do: Under the "Notes" section, we include the picture of the concept art and write "Marvel has released concept art of the film featuring Star-Lord, Rocket Raccoon, Drax the Destroyer, Gamora, and Groot."
- EDIT: Sorry, forgot to sign LoveWaffle (talk) 06:55, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
- I recognize that the concept art of the five characters exists and that they're most likely going to end up in this film (in fact, I'd say it's pretty obvious that at least Star-Lord and Rocket Raccoon are). However, the film is still two years away and any number of things could happen that changes that five-man team. It's not like there isn't a precedent for this: Beak was one of the first characters announced for X-Men Origins: Wolverine but was ultimately replaced by Bolt, Leonardo DiCaprio and Phillip Seymour Hoffman were in talks to play The Riddler and The Penguin in The Dark Knight Rises before both of those characters were cut out, the Crimson Dynamo was supposed to be the villain in Iron Man and then Iron Man 2, etc. What we need to do is at least wait for an official casting announcement before we add any characters. Since the director was just announced today, I don't think we have long to wait.
- LoveWaffle (talk) 06:35, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
- I see your point, but I also feel like some of those examples you listed clash with the info we have here. I heard about the Riddler and The Penguin, and Crimson Dynamo, but I remember all those coming from entertainment sites and publications. The team listing here comes from Marvel themselves. While I think that a casting call and a sh*tload of additional info needs to be released before articles get made, I don't feel that listing the 5 team members that Marvel named is out of question. --Spencerz (talk) 06:44, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with lovewaffle, mostly. don't think it is necessary to wat until the very day the movies come out, but at peast have the patence to wait until things are certain, i.e. until the movie is being filmed and you are certain tha a character will be in the film. Producing movies is a fickle business - for the moment, we know NOTHING about it. Yes, there's concept art. No, that doesn't mean these characerts will be in it. It warrants an entry under "notes", not appearance listings. --edkaufman (talk) 08:17, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
- I'll echo the sentiment that we don't need to wait for the movie release to begin accurately documenting it, and a key word there is "accurately". Certainly with the release of the trailer we will finally have definitive information to go on and there will also be the promotional marketing and official website to fill in a few blanks. -- WarBlade (talk) 11:42, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
- I'm weighing in with an idea before I even check it out myself. How's that for helpful? :)
- How do sites like IMDB handle movie speculation? They are a database site that specifically deals with movies. Maybe we could get some ideas from how they do things.
- Artful Dodger (talk) 12:55, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
I'd say that the characters should be listed on there (since Marvel themselves have confirmed that those are the characters in the film) and if something happens to where a character isnt in the film or something changes or whatever that we just simply take out the incorrect information and replace it with the correct information. you have to work with what you have been given and Marvel right now has given us that Star-Lord, Rocket Raccoon, Groot, Gamora, and Drax are the cast they are working with but as I said before if things change just simply delete the incorrect information and replace it with the correct information. we dont have to wait for the movie to be released before we update it (that in my opinion seems a little redundant as we had the information that was from the creators beforehand but we didnt want to take 1 minute or less to just go in and simply fix something that may have been wrong). we have information right now and if the film or whatever says something different again we just take out the incorrect information and replace it with the correct information.
I feel that would be the best way to do this so that way all the information Marvel has given us is provided and encyclopedias and books and whatever are updated and changed all the time so it shouldnt be a problem.
plus again Marvel has said that they are the cast and they are creating it so they would know whats going on with it and they have also been really good at updating us about things recently so I really dont see what the problem is with this, we have legitimate information from the creators themselves that say that this is who they are working with and we have the ability to go in and simply change something that would take less than 1 minute to change (probably less than 30 seconds to change even) should the information be wrong and/or misinterpreted I think I have provided a fair compromise that is easy for everyone to work with. If you have a legitimate problem please let me know but I don't see what the problem is with this compromise that I have provided. Lordofninjas1 (talk) 17:33, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
(Responding to multiple things down here, just so responses don't get lost.)
- Artful: IMDb is a terrible database site when it comes to unreleased movies. Because anyone with an account can make changes, and because the staff there requires no form of fact-checking, anyone can throw up any actor/actress and any character they want, usually with a "(rumored)" tag next to it. And because things are so slow to update over there, that bad info can stay up for months, even after the release of a project. And that is the opposite of what we want.
- WarBlade, Lovewaffle, and Edkaufman: I've mainly sided with the "no speculation" stance you guys have, but I feel that Lordofninjas1 may be in the right on this one. I'm not saying we need to go as far as articles and the like that Lordofninjas1 is pushing for, but I feel that listing these characters would not be an issue. Multiple times it has been confirmed that the 2008 incarnation (the same one listed on the notes section of the film) is the team they will be including. It may not be "written in blood" confirmed, but I'm sure we all can see that this line-up has a pretty solid chance of being final. However, I feel that I'm in the minority, and if concensus dictates, I have no issue with leaving the appearances empty.
- Lordofninjas1: I don't think you realize what it takes to change things around here. It may seem like it takes 30 seconds to rename a page if the film gives a character a different name, or to delete the page of a once-confirmed character that gets cut, but it takes quite some time for things around here to happen. It's not by choice, or out of laziness, but because renaming and deleting things is a part of an established process that takes a decent amount of time to completly function. That being as it is, we don't like jumping the gun in hopes of not making extra work for ourselves.
I can understand that you guys dont want to make extra work for yourselves but I am not really understanding what you mean by "it takes quite some time" dont you just go to the page click edit delete the "offending" Material and replace it with something else and then just leave it there with the new stuff all put in there and such? that doesnt seem like a lot of work to me.
and I dont know where you got me asking for pages to be made for the characters I was asking if the characters could be posted on here and then when marvel gives us more information we update whatever the information is about. for example right now just leave the names on there without creating pages for them and then if marvel in like 3 days says oh the actual name we are using for Drax is ... then go to the Drax page and update it with that information and then in like a week or so they say something like oh we are using the war of Kings story for the guardians movie so then you go to the guardians of the galaxy movie page and update that its going to be the War of Kings story and then like a month after that they say oh we arent using Star-Lord in the film so just go onto this page and delete Star-Lord from the character list (again that was just an example and not to be taken as fact or whatever just purely for example purposes) you see what I mean thats really simple and it doesnt take a lot of time.
and that way you have all the information on there to be an encyclopedia like you guys keep trying to use as an argument against this but it isnt working, this kind of editing war and such doesnt happen, everyone is happy, you have official information that you are supposed to be up to date on and documenting, etc. it doesnt seem difficult to me at all if you would like I could be the sole editor of this page and whatever and give the most up to date info since it will only take me like a little bit of time to do. Lordofninjas1 (talk) 21:50, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Lordofninjas1. You've been consistent in totally missing the point of a wiki. This is an encyclopaedia, not a news blog. It exists to document something in existence. It should never be home to content that, as you put it, is where we can "just simply take out the incorrect information and replace it with the correct information." And yes, it's plain to see that you don't understand the "it takes some time" thing. To move a page once created, an admin has to rename it. Other users can only tag it with a suggestion to be renamed. Then once that's done there is a process of hunting down any articles that might still be linked to the article's old name. On top of that, the naming convention here is to use a character's hero name as a disambiguation page with links to the specific character using their real name. It would be helpful if you just comply with the standard operating practice here, instead of flying off on a tangent and making messes for people to clean up. -- WarBlade (talk) 22:19, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Two Things:
- On the GotG film: Will those five characters appear in the film? Probably. For characters like Star-Lord and Rocket Raccoon, almost definitely. But anything could happen in the months between now and when this film enters post-production. Remember - the 2000 X-Men film was supposed to feature a cast similar to that of the 90s cartoon, but Beast and Gambit were eventually cut even though there was already concept art featuring them.
- On Cap 2: We all know who the Winter Soldier is, but his identity is a spoiler. Leaving up a spoiler for that long is just a bad idea. And on Falcon, all we have is that Anthony Mackie was "eyed" or is "eyeing" for the role. There's no official confirmation that he's even been cast.
- LoveWaffle (talk) 22:28, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
@Warblade: yes I understand that it is an encyclopedia. I think you do not understand that Encyclopedias are also updated and edited constantly as new information comes out. the Guardians movie is in existence just not as a film or a hard copy. and I am not saying MOVE a page I dont know where you got move a page from I am saying CREATE A PAGE when more information becomes available. its still following your guys rules or at least the rules I have been told you guys have of not making something until there is more information about it. the renaming thing shouldnt matter in this as no renaming is necissary with what I have proposed. I am using all the heroes names (Gamora, Groot, Rocket Raccoon, Drax the Destroyer, and Star-Lord) and not there human names (as only Drax and Star-Lord have). I have said everything that fits into your rules maybe you need to not be so stupid and/or stubborn and actually see that I am trying to help with Legitimate information that has been confirmed by the creators who know a whole hell of a lot more about it than you will ever hope to know. maybe your standard operating practice needs a change did you ever think of that or are you far too stubborn to accept that change is good and that it needs to be changed?Lordofninjas1 (talk) 22:36, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
@Lovewaffle: yes I know things can change thats why I am proposing this update when more information comes out type thing so that when and if something changes you are ready for it and can fix it. why cant you see that it will help you?
as for captain america I recently havent been arguing who Winter Soldier is I have just been putting Winter Soldier with NO TIES to anyone on the character list (hes in the film its confirmed by the title and by Marvel) so that "Spoiler" thing doesnt really work for you right now. and from what ive read and whatever from links I have provided the Falcon is for sure confirmed. Lordofninjas1 (talk) 22:36, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Because having to consistently clean-up pages you edit isn't helpful. All of the edits you've made are against the accepted style of the site. When the only way you can make the edit is to break from that style, then you're doing something wrong. It's that simple. LoveWaffle (talk) 22:53, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
Wow this is becoming a mess. Although I've ben on the side of adding the team to the character list, I also see the majority is leaning towards not including them, and I have absolutely no problem with that. Lordofninjas1, that seems to leave you as the only non-admin hold-out.
Now, we've had an admin opinion (from Edkaufman) in favor of not listing the team in the "featured characters" section. We also have posts from various users asking for Johnnybravo44, GrnMrvl14, Darksied01 and ArtfulDodger to weigh in. I feel admin majority should decide this one, and I feel most if not all will agree with what Edkaufman already posted. Hopefuly some of them will be on later tonight and can give some opinion. --Spencerz (talk) 22:50, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
I knew all the admins were too selfish and stubborn that they would agree with you. why cant you see that I am trying to help but your rules are preventing me from helping. I have just tried to be helpful this entire time with giving legitimate information confirmed by the creators themselves who know a lot more about it than you will probably ever know and you got mad at me for helping. all I have been trying to do is improve your site but you are too stubborn to accept anything. i have used this analogy before but its like you are in the desert dying of starvation with no food or water for a long time and then miraculasly someone walks up and hands you your most favorite food in the entire world and a cool drink of water but you say you dont want it because it doesnt meet "the way you do things" because you are stubborn and dont like help or change even though it is good. sometimes you need to learn to adapt and to change and not be so "oh we can only do it this way and if we do it any other way bad stuff will happen" type attitude that I have been seeing from you guys. I know how to adapt and accept change I've been doing it my entire life so I know what I am talking about. now I think its your guys turn to see that I am just trying to help and what I have been posting isnt a problem and isnt hurting anything.Lordofninjas1 (talk) 23:03, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
- I knew all the admins were too selfish and stubborn that they would agree with you
- Don't expect to win an argument with that as your opening statement.
- why cant you see that I am trying to help but your rules are preventing me from helping
- The rules are there to prevent us from having to consistently clean up pages, which is what your "helping" is making us do every time you make an edit.
- I have just tried to be helpful this entire time with giving legitimate information confirmed by the creators themselves who know a lot more about it than you will probably every know and you got mad at me for helping
- We're not denying the veracity of the information you post, we simply think it doesn't yet need to be on the page for one reason or another. And again, what you're doing is not actually helping.
- all I have been trying to do is improve your site but you are too stubborn to accept anything
- If you want to improve the site, you can at least stick to the accepted style of the site, which you have not done. Also, when you appear to be arguing your point against what others, from registered users like myself, admins, and even a few unregistered users, you may need to reconsider who is being "stubborn".
- i have used this analogy before but its like you are in the desert dying of starvation with no food or water for a long time and then miraculasly (SIC) someone walks up and hands you your most favorite food in the entire world and a cool drink of water but you say you dont want it because it doesnt meet "the way you do things" because you are stubborn and dont like help or change even though it is good
- I legitimately can't tell what you're trying to get at here, but what I can tell is that you're blowing this whole thing out of proportion.
- sometimes you need to learn to adapt and to change and not be so "oh we can only do it this way and if we do it any other way bad stuff will happen" type attitude that I have been seeing from you guys
- Still, I have no idea what you're getting at. We're just trying to keep the site clean and free of vandalism, which is what your edits have been working against, particularly as you try and bolster your argument by making personal attacks.
- I know how to adapt and accept change I've been doing it my entire life so I know what I am talking about
- Then do that.
- now I think its your guys turn to see that I am just trying to help and what I have been posting isnt a problem and isnt hurting anything
- Your edits are against style, against the site's policy, against the decisions of admins and what appears to be a good number of other registered users, and, when you try to defend your position, you resort to calling everyone who does not agree with you stubborn. You're not helping. LoveWaffle (talk) 23:20, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
how is my help a thing you need to clean up? its in-universe material that the creators have confirmed thats what you guys told me that you need for the articles and I have been providing that. why do you not think my information needs to be on there? and I was trying to help before you started the editing war. are you sure you guys arent blowing this whole thing out of proportion and how can you not understand a simple analogy? how is my post Vandalism? well maybe the site policy should change but I know no one will listen to me when I say something because its completely pointless trying to talk to stupid people. just because you decide its wrong doesnt mean that it is if something is wrong correct it. you arent helping either. and dont try to keep using the "what your doing is vandalism and against "policy" and whatever argument because the policy is what got us into this argument in the first place. so you cant keep using it to defend your statement.Lordofninjas1 (talk) 23:44, August 19, 2012 (UTC)
- a) We need to clean up your edits because they are against site policy and style. b) Your analogy is terrible. c) You do not help your position via ad hominem attacks. d) Site "policy" is not what's brought us here, it's your edits. LoveWaffle (talk) 00:01, August 20, 2012 (UTC)
- locked down both pages before i realized ninjas had been blocked - unless anyone opposes, i will leave the locked for a week to let things cool down and reach a consensus. If any new, confirmed information comes along during that time, please contact me or another admin and we will add the information.--edkaufman (talk) 08:29, August 20, 2012 (UTC)
All that stuff above behind us, I think it's safe to list
Star-Lord and Rocket Raccoon under the appearances section. Although no one's been cast as of the time I'm writing this, Marvel's actively been recruiting for those two roles (something that can't be said for the other characters in the concept art).
LoveWaffle (talk) 17:44, January 29, 2013 (UTC)
- Same could now be said for Drax now. Per this source, actors have tested (no casting yet) for Drax.
- LoveWaffle (talk) 03:20, February 16, 2013 (UTC)
I was hoping we could put together a list of all the different alien species featured in the film. So far I have found:
- Flora colossi
- Drax's Species
- Dark Elf