What's in a Name
I'm really tired of having to fix this. Seriously very tired. Jean Grey has not always been Phoenix, and is not always acting in the capacity of phoenix. Before she uses the codename phoenix the history should refer to her as Marvel Girl or Jean (as appropriate). When she is in costume she should be referred to in the costumed identity she is in. When she is out of costume she is Jean. Not Phoenix. Phoenix does not marry Cyclops, Jean Grey marries Scott Summers. This is not just a semantic distinction, and the guilty party responsible for changing this should feel ashamed since they'd *already been told not to do so months ago*. I am fixing it now, and if it gets reverted to Phoenix again I will put a warning on the guilty party's user page.
(Ugg... why would anyone do that. The passage where she and the Phoenix Force talk with each other in the arctic was a confused morass of Phoenices with all instances of Jean replaced by Phoenix. Completely unacceptable.)
Similarly, she is Jean Grey until she marries Scott, and only afterwards is she Jean Grey-Summers. Its called continuity for a reason, it doesn't retroactively change the past. --Squirrelloid 16:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
What Goes Here
Ok, I know this is somewhat complicated because its Jean Grey we're talking about (with possibly the craziest character history ever written), but here's where things go.
If its about Jean Grey sans Phoenix powers, it goes here.
If its about Jean Grey with Phoenix powers but acting as Jean Grey, it goes here.
If its about Phoenix impersonating Jean Grey, it goes under Phoenix (Phoenix Force) or Dark Phoenix, and NOT HERE.
If its about White Phoenix of the Crown acting in the capacity of Phoenix, it goes on that page and NOT HERE.
If its about any Phoenix personalities it goes on the appropriate Phoenix page. It may also go here (in the history section) if and only if Jean directly interacts with that personality. It should be significant to Jean to warrant inclusion both places.
While Phoenix and Jean are now treated as basically one entity, this has not always been the case, and they are actually separate entities that are bound together. They can and should be discussed separately. Most of the time we can pretend there's just one entity (Jean), but there are also times when we need to discuss them separately (Jean telling Phoenix it doesn't belong in the White Queen only makes sense if they are two beings). Thus anything specific to Phoenix doesn't belong on this page because its NOT JEAN. Update the Phoenix pages instead (Please, they need it). --Squirrelloid 18:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
WoW This sounds complicated :( Copycat989 19:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I blame the writers who brought her back in the first place. --Squirrelloid 21:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Calling White Phoenix of the Crown an alias seems to stretch the term a bit much. An alias is something one uses as a name instead of one's own. Jean doesn't just call herself White Phoenix of the Crown, she is White Phoenix of the Crown. Ug, the more I try to clean up this page the more it makes my head hurt. Thoughts or suggestions on whether this needs changing? --Squirrelloid 17:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Secondly, I removed Dark Phoenix as a former alias. She wasn't. The Phoenix Force was. However, I seem to recall she has used the Phoenix name as a codename much more recently. Can someone confirm with issue citations? To me this is just rumor, cause its well after i stopped collecting. If she has, Phoenix should be added to the list of former aliases.--Squirrelloid 17:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
She "gained" the Phoenix surname from the future Rachel in The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix and used it up until her death in New X-Men. The Dark Phoenix alias is probably from Phoenix Endsong, although i guess that would fall under the White Phoenix.koku 18:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
- Truthfully, I was under the impression that her codename was Phoenix. This was the last I heard when I last saw her in Excalibur (before I quit collecting for some time). It was when Rachel ("Phoenix") at the time went into the future as Mother Askani and asked Jean to take on the Phoenix name as a legacy. She did and thus the naming of the comic following this story "Cyclops and Phoenix".
- After thinking bout that (unless she changed the codename in the meantime) we still have it set as the "Code Name (Real Name)" format on most of the links here and we should really change the name to "Phoenix (Jean Grey)". This is just my opinion, but even still this does not justify the merging of Phoenix Force information into Jean's page since she is NOT THE PHOENIX...she happens to have the codename Phoenix. Just my POV on the matter.
- Here is how I would have it (if I were the Master of the Marvel Universe...) 1. Phoenix (Jean Grey) or worst case scenario "Jean Grey-Summers", 2. Phoenix Force, 3. White Phoenix of the Crown, 4. White Hot Room. Any others that I may have missed. Point being they need to have their own separate pages, since they are all different.
- --M1shawhan 01:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- New Business - Forest777, unless you can provide documentation, Jean has never gone by Dark Phoenix. Ever. Those are manifestations of the Phoenix Force, NOT Jean. Further, she has gone by Phoenix (as reference, see preceeding text in this section of the discussion page.) Please stop changing the Current Aliases to Dark Phoenix, its NOT TRUE. (Especially since she's currently dead, so even if she had gone by it, its not current.) Jamie, I'm going to change it back and i'm going to ask you to lock this page so some people actually bother to use the discussion page instead of talking about clearly controversial changes. --Squirrelloid 03:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
- I have to back you on this one. A personal pet peeve of mine, which has been happening more often lately, is when folks edit back-and-forth while discussion is ongoing.
- I won't lock the page yet, but needless to say, I won't be pleased if this continues.
- --Jamie 04:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Jean Grey, White Phoenix etc
Jean Grey got the Phoenix codename back in 1994 in the Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix mini series.
Jean Grey began wearing a Phoenix costume and manifesting the raptor again in 1998 during Seagles run.
In 2000, Jean Grey wore a new Phoenix costume, manifested the raptor, and manifested the shadow form with Phoenix symbol over her eye that Rachel now manifests.
In 2001 during the X-Men Forever mini series Jean used the Phoenix force to touch and talk with Eternity.
Jean Grey was first called "a White Phoenix of the Crown" by the Phoenix Consciousness in New X-Men #154 but Jean has appeared as the White Phoenix in the Classic X-Men #43 backstory (1990), X-Men Forever #3 (2001), New X-Men #154 (2004), and Phoenix Endsong #5 (2005).
Jean being a White Phoenix should be mentioned in her bio because its important to her story. Since we have a separate entry for her White Phoenix identity, her history as a White Phoenix is explained in detail there.
Also remember that while her first Phoenix years were retconned, by the retcon she was not merely impersonated. The Phoenix absorbed/borrowed/transferred (different stories used different words) a portion of Jean's consciousness.
So a part of Jean had become Phoenix/Dark Phoenix. Recent stories also reference Jean as being the original Phoenix.
I expanded the entry for the White Phoenix of the Crown because only Jean's appearance as the White Phoenix from Endsong #5 was mentioned.
I also expanded the entry for the White Hot Room.
I also want to mention that some stories have shown Jean to have a connection to the Phoenix before Uncanny 100.
In the Classic X-Men #42 backstory, Jean as a child is shown manifesting an aspect of her mind as the Phoenix. She reaches out to touch Scott in the orphanage. This is referenced in the Classic #43 backstory and Endsong #4.
In X-Men the Hidden Years #8-#9, Jean as Marvel Girl during the original X-Men days is scanned by the Phoenix Force and has a subconscious encounter with it. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shanehenry (talk • contribs).
Actually, I think it would be better, if this page name is "Phoenix."Because, many people have misunderstood about Jean's codename. Just think about it, if everybody knows if Jean Grey is a mutant, she shouldn't use Phoenix codename. Codename's function is to unreveal a mutant identity, so he/she is not worry to go public. And, i think that the ex-members of Hellfire Club(or still in it) don't use the codename again. for example:
ex-member: Emma Frost (formerly White Queen)
member: Selene (Black Queen)
in the Hellfire Club, it was the Phoenix Force, not Jean. And, although Sue Storm a.k.a Invisible Woman's true identity has been revealed, why people still call her Invisible Woman?? Why people don't call "Phoenix" to Jean??That's a big question mark to me
And, for some additions. Look at Emma Frost. She uses her real name as her codename, not using White Queen as her codename, because she isn't the White Queen again. She was the White Queen when she was working for the Hell fire Club. Now she isn't working for Hellfire Club anymore.
But, Jean still using Phoenix codename, because She is the Phoenix itself. She won't ever change her codename. Just look at www.marvel.com. In that site, Jean Grey-Summers uses PHoenix as the codename. So, Jean Grey-Summers is Phoenix... The preceding unsigned comment was added by Forest777 (talk • contribs).
- Sign your opinions! -- I am still thinking the name should be changed, but Phoenix is not THE PHOENIX. The Phoenix is a force (entity) that "possessed" Jean Grey and used her as a host of sorts (copied her body while she was in a cocoon). This is a totally different being and should not be merged. Just wanted to make sure this was addressed since there seems to be some confusion about this. --M1shawhan 17:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- As someone who read for a long time, and has a fairly comprehensive collection of X-Men comics from start through Onslaught (i guess i do need to pick up those Classic X-Men comics though... sigh, the originals should be good enough!), I find the page much more conveniently just named Jean Grey. She's gone through a number of codename changes, but she's always Jean Grey. (And went by just that for awhile - its not like her identity is secret.) My 2 cents --Squirrelloid 19:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Come on people, settle down now...
Firstly: I have locked this talk page from moves (the same way I did the article itself), which I should have done at the same time...
Secondly: As I have said a bazillion times before, please discuss changes here before making them to the article. Forest777, I am speaking to you specifically.
Marvel.com does indeed have her listed as Phoenix, but I don't think we need to follow their lead on this one. Let's discuss it among ourselves first...
--Jamie 22:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Jean Grey/Phoenix is the head of the Phoenix Corp. Phoenix Corp is an organization that reconstructing and rearrange any living things by molecular scale. Phoenix Corp works as a god, create living things, or reconstruct it. As the Phoenix, Jean is the head of all Phoenix Corp works. But now, she takes control the Phoenix Corp as The White Phoenix of The Crown
Is this true? I haven't heard of this...
(Citation maybe?) --Jamie 14:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
- Never heard of it. :) Copycat989 21:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
- Never heard of it. Sounds pretty stupid, but that doesn't stop it from being true. (Seriously, why does a cosmic entity need to incorporate? Have people at Marvel forgotten what words mean?) --Squirrelloid 03:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
- I would like to see it removed until we have a citation, or someone that actually has heard of it...
- --Jamie 04:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I also agree that the part about the Phoenix Corp at the end should be removed.
We do not know if Jean leads the Phoenix Corp or how the Phoenix Corp is going to be explained.
It was shown in New X-Men #154 and Jean Grey did seem to be high on the heirarchy of Phoenixes, however.
Jean is the only one addressed by a title by the Phoenix Consciousness.
She is dressed in her White and Gold costume and she is referred to as the White Phoenix of the Crown. She is the only one in white and gold, the others are in a variety of colors.
In the script to New 154 in the Tradepaper back, Morrison writes that the other Phoenixes gather around Jean in awe and view her as the center of creation.
Jean is the one that holds and heals the universe.
We don't know if she leads them, but she does seem to be more powerful and more one with the Phoenix than the others.
Shanehenry (sorry I'm new to this and haven't figured out how to sign posts yet).
Jean's official codename during X-Factor was Marvel Girl. For example in X-Factor #65 Jean was listed as Marvel Girl. She was listed as or referred to as Marvel Girl throughout the series. Like always she was mostly called Jean, but Marvel Girl was her official and often used codename during that time.
Jean's Marvel Girl codename was dropped when the original X-Men went back and joined the X-Men and they formed the Blue and Gold Teams in OCtober 1991 with X-Men #1. During this time she simply went by Jean Grey. She got the Phoenix codename in August 1994 in Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix #4.
Even though Jean only went without a codename for about 3 years, fans came to associate her with the aspect of not having a codename. I think this mostly came from the X-Men the Animated Series which used her without a codename. Due to this X-Men Evolution and the movies also used her without a codename which has added to fans identifying her as soley Jean Grey.
While her Phoenix codename was used a lot in the later 90s and early 2000 (like in Claremont's Revolution run)...
In Morrison's New X-Men run Phoenix was listed as her official codename and from time to time she was addressed as Phoenix but she was mostly referred to as simply Jean Grey.
Shanehenry 01:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
See, the problem is that she 'officially' had a codename, but they mostly forgot she had it. I remember opening a pack of X-Men trading cards back in the day, and seeing Marvel Girl on the front, and going "oh yeah, I guess she does technically have that codename." But it made me stop and think. It was really unusual to see it used in the comics after the Silver Age run. (Admittedly her Bronze Age appearances aren't... voluminous).
I guess I could go through all my X-Factors at some point and count instances, it would be amusing.
That also leads to a question of how we should handle codenames. If someone has a 'codename' officially given, but its rarely or never used, is it really an alias? --Squirrelloid 09:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Even in the original Phoenix sagas, Jean went mostly by Jean or Jeannie than her official codename of Phoenix.
I think you will be surprised by how many times Jean was called Marvel Girl in X-Factor even though she probably went by Jean most of the time. In X-Factor #50, Jean is called Marvel Girl by another character for example.
Shanehenry 05:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm just full of questions here... Whomever is responsible for the "Lady Grey" in the relatives section, can i get a citation on that? If its a reference to Mastermind's illusionary world from Dark Phoenix Saga, then its not a relative, its an identity created for her by Mastermind to match the time period. (It might belong under previous aliases, except she never really went by it, she was just called it by 'Jason Wyngarde'.) --Squirrelloid 17:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Lady Grey is from the Hellfire Club mini.koku 23:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Don't you think the link to Famke Janssen should direct to the Wikipedia page for this actor, or are we going to create new pages for all the actors that appear in Marvel movies? The Wikipedia page is very good, and a lot more thorough than the one on the MDP. Just one of the advantages of being on a large scale database project like Wikipedia.
- I think we as a whole have been trying to avoid this question (or at least sidestep it). I personally do not see that each one should be put on this site. There were a lot from the site that was "merged" with this one and we have adopted a large chunk of them.
- We need to come up with some sort of plan and think we should move this discussion to the forums so that even it can be polled or at least interpreted by more than just those that read "Talk:Jean Grey" (which may be small). I will post a poll/question on the forums in a little bit for more input on how to approach this. --M1shawhan 00:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I found references for many of the abilities in Jean's power sections. With some, I referenced one issue that contains an example of Jean using her powers in that way and some I listed multiple examples. Multiple examples probably could be found for many of them.
There are still some references that are needed.
I also want to point out that Jean used psychometry in X-Men #71 when she purged the mansion of Bastion's essence. She also used psychometry in an X-Men Unlimited issue where she touches a dead dog and sees what happened to it and then feels and channels its emotions. It was written by Chuck Austen but I can't remember the issue #.
Also in Nate Grey's bio they use the term "Mental Trap" to refer to a stunt where he took another person's mind into his own. Jean did this with Xavier in New X-Men #125/126.
Also should her telekinetic power stunts be described in the same format that her telepathic powers are described?
Shanehenry 05:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't know it's true or not, but in Marvel Zombies series (the one which has a blonde zombie girl holding a book), At the back page, there was Zombiverse Peter Parker (Spiderman) as main pose, but I also saw Zombiverse Jean Grey (Phoenix) and Zombiverse Steve Rogers (Colonel America). Is it possible if Phoenix is infected with the virus?? Because an omega level mutant like Magneto is infected, and the most certainly sure fact is her appearance at far right on Spiderman's back. Thank's for all attention!!
I'm simply curious why we haven't changed her name to Jean Grey-Summers on this page. Is it because she isn't referred to it in the comics as much or because from this page we can see all of the different versions of the character and there is only one Jean Grey-Summers that married Scott?--Wazzirving 22:47, October 25, 2010 (UTC)wazzirving
All of the material pertaining to the Phoenix Force, I moved to the Phoenix Force page. I read that we are not to put the bio of the Phoenix Force under Jean Grey-Summers bio because that was a separate character. If that rings true, then I assumed that on the discombobulation page, Phoenix should only contain people with the codename Phoenix and alternate reality versions of her. All of the other things are expressly for the Phoenix Force and not for a codename. Mostly because we actually have a Phoenix Force page, I did this. Wazzirving 17:55, November 22, 2010 (UTC)wazzirving