Talk:Johann Shmidt (Earth-616)

Citizen V and the V Battalion features the Red Skull in a fb with someone resembling Emil Stein from TOS II#1.

Shmidt/Schmidt

The OHOTMU Hardcover series #9 gives the spelling of his and his daughter Sin's name as Shmidt, without the "c". Eetmi 16:41, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

How many reference sources use the "c", most of them?

Roygbiv666 -- 02:55, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

Master Edition Handbook uses the "c". Deluxe Edition and the '89 Update don't. The original series...has his real name us "unrevealed." Seems to be three to one, with one source abstaining.

--GrnMarvl14 03:36, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

I'd lean towards the recent A-Z Hardcovers since those are a LOT more recent than the others. Eetmi 00:06, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

Same. And since both Red Skull's and Sin's profiles omit the "c", then I'd take that as being the accurate spelling. At least until the NEXT Handbook entry on either one changes it back.

--GrnMarvl14 01:48, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

How often is his name given in actual comic stories? I think just considering the OHOTMU type stuff is a bit limited. You only need one editor to miss something, and suddenly "Peter Parker" is "Petor Paker".

Roygbiv666 -- 03:25, January 16, 2010 (UTC)

Schmidt is certainly the more common name and considered a "proper" german spelling, as the combination sh for that sound doesn't exist in german. The spelling Shmidt exists as well, but especially in Russia and the States and also quite often in Jewish families - now wouldn't that be a weird twist. ;) Marvel used Shmidt on several occasions for German soldiers in their war mags, but I always considered those typos and/or bad knowledge of German. Is there a reason for copying an obvious error, even if it's in the OHOTMU?--edkaufman 10:57, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

Because it's more accurate, continuity-wise. Maybe German's different in the ol' 616.

--GrnMarvl14 17:14, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

no doubt, a few things are very different, i.e plain "wrong" in the 616s. I still agree with Roygbiv666 (especially when considering the linguistic facts): This is a simple editor's typo. We all know how Marvel depends on dedicated fan-scholars to set things right when they mess up or miss things. Stick with the c. --edkaufman 00:56, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Ugh, this is a nightmare. My heart wants to follow the hardcover series (like it's written by the hand of God), but my head says use common sense. :(

— Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • contribs • email) 22:51, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

The Handbooks seem fairly definitive on the issue (Red Skull's listing in Acts of Vengeance is Shmidt). Marvel.com also omits the "c." As does the Marvel Directory. And, again, it's not JUST the current Handbooks that omit the "c." Mark Gruenwald was behind most of the original Handbooks. WHILE writing Captain America, in many (if not all) cases. To me, THAT'S definitive above all else. And Shmidt seems fairly common in the real world.

--GrnMarvl14 23:13, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the handbooks are authoritative. If they weren't, we could stop doing our work alltogether, most likely. That still doesn't mean they make sense all the time: you're right, the spelling without the c exists in the real world, though you get about 200 times less hits than the spelling with the c on google. I just checked the online phone book for germany and I got 9 hits. schmidt gets me 10'000+, which sounds about right, since it's the german translation of smith. Again, I may be wrong, but as far as I remember, the c-less spelling is almost exclusive to russian and/or jewish families (it would be one of those family names forced onto jewish families in order to make them easily recognizable as jews). Now I'm not saying it's impossible (and in fact, it would be one hell of a weird character twist if the red skull was jewish), but it seems very, very unlikely. I can see how it would be weird (on priciple alone) to deviate from the OHOTMU - but we do deviate when it comes to reality numbers, with the explicit intention of getting our information into the handbooks at one point. Whatever decision we reach, we should put a brief synopsis concerning the confusion under "notes".--edkaufman 01:24, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

We really only deviate on reality numbers when there isn't an existing reality number they utilize. And, when it comes to names, shouldn't we defer to the official published sources? Especially when there's more than one that uses that name? I mean, barring a recent revelation, shouldn't we trust the official sources to be accurate? Should we really second-guess their spellings? I understand if the real name was only referenced twice, and misspelled one of those times. Then I'd be all for going with the common sense name (Schmidt, in this instance). Makes sense. But at what point are we just thinking we know better (than the official material)? I'm all for placing a note on the page to note what's more accurate in terms of "this is how the real world works." That's good information. That's solid. That's interesting (to a nerd like me, at least). But shouldn't our baseline be the official word (or spelling, in this case)? Though, if we keep it at Schmidt, we need to make sure to move Sin's page back.

--GrnMarvl14 02:46, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Not to beat a dead horse, but:

How often is his name given in actual comic stories? I think just considering the OHOTMU type stuff is a bit limited. You only need one editor to miss something, and suddenly "Peter Parker" is "Petor Paker".

03:45, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

But it's not just one instance. Shmidt is in three Handbooks stretching across two of three decades. Sin's profile (his daughter) uses the Shmidt spelling. His listing in Acts of Vengeance uses Shmidt. In every instance in which his last name is mentioned in the Deluxe edition, it's Shmidt. For it to be repeated over several Handbook iterations would take more than one editor making the same mistake. More than one writer making the same mistake. Whereas the ONE Handbook with Schmidt...that COULD be attributed to an editorial mistake. Especially since it IS more accurate in the real world. Seem to vaguely recall another character whose name is commonly misspelled because it's NOT spelled the common way. Wish I could actually remember who it was, though.

--GrnMarvl14 20:27, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I wasn't clear. Aside from OHOTMU books, when the Skull's name appears in comics, do they spell it with a "c" or not? It is conceivable that each OHOTMU edition just copies over data from the last one. What is the preponderance of usage overall for the spelling of the Skull's real name?

23:21, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

The Twelve: Spearhead #1: "And if that wasn't enough, there's a good chance we are going to run into the Reich's highest ranking officer, obergruppenfuhrer Johann Shmidt." That work?

--GrnMarvl14 01:17, March 13, 2010 (UTC)

OK, that's "one" for "Shmidt". Again, to belabor the point - how often are the different spellings used in stories?

01:43, March 13, 2010 (UTC)

Do we need to count up every single time his last name is mentioned and determine the spelling from that? Cause that could take a while. So far, we've got numerous Handbooks and an in-continuity reference all using the same spelling. Why is this not enough? Because it's uncommon? In a universe where characters are named Mar-Vell, Thanos, and Cal'syee...is Shmidt that odd?

--GrnMarvl14 03:01, March 13, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't actually trying to be difficult. Even for comics stuff, I really don't care. I just think 'preponderance trumps OHOTMU, that's all. No big deal. 04:02, March 13, 2010 (UTC)

definitely agree: the horse is dead. arguments have been made, two possible solutions are clear: either leave it, and add a note saying why we deviate from the OHOTMU, or change it and add a note that it was different before and that it may be a typo. Now, how do we proceed? Is there like a final vote?--edkaufman 16:04, March 13, 2010 (UTC)

Roygbiv666, you're not being difficult, I'm just genuinely wondering what it's going to take to convince you guys that it's accurate. Literally, will it take going through every single appearance and counting up the Shmidts vs the Schmidts, or will a certain number suffice? As is, it seems that we have several Handbooks and an in-continuity reference versus...commonality and a vague remembrance. What issues have him referred to as Schmidt, aside from one Handbook (which, since it's one out of numerous versions would be the aberration, NOT the Shmidt)?

--GrnMarvl14 17:55, March 13, 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what it would take, because he's a fictional character. Accurate is whatever the writers say it is. What is the primary source of info - is it comics or OHOTMU? There's no birth certificate to check, my only point is that if there were 132 stories using the "c" and only 3 without, the answer is clear. Why not just say OHOTMU says no "c", but alternate spellings exist?

21:11, March 13, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe there are 132 issues where he's called Schmidt...but give me some issue numbers. Not some "maybes", but some actual issue numbers. I've provided several where it's Shmidt. Should this be how we do things now? Someone says a spelling's more common and we go with that over the people who continuously provide references to the contrary?

I'd be fine with a note...but does that mean we should go through every character who has a name that isn't the common spelling and put the same note? I mean, Jonathan is the more common spelling of that name. Do we need that note on Johnny Blaze's page? Or Chamber's? How about Valkyrie? Brunnhilde doesn't appear to be the common spelling of her name. Kathryn's not the most common spelling of that name. Should we add a note to Kathryn Twoyoungmen and Kathryn Immonen's pages? Why not go with what the Handbooks and the one clear reference that's been brought up say? If it's wrong...we can move it back. No note's needed unless we need to add notes to EVERY page that has an uncommon spelling of a name, and if people have questions, we can point them to this discussion on the talk page. And if we find out that all along it was Schmidt...feel free to blame me and say "I told you so."

--GrnMarvl14 00:17, March 14, 2010 (UTC)

He's called Shmidt the first time his real name is given, in Captain America #298. His father's name is spelled Shmidt, and his name is given with the same spelling no less than six times. He's been mis-spelled Schmidt a fair few times, but that's simply because it is the more common spelling, so people assume. However, the original spelling, one still in use in the comics as shown by the Twelve one-shot, and the one used by the handbooks is Shmidt. The handbooks aren't accidentally spelling it Shmidt all those times; it's deliberate, because it is the correct spelling for the character. Lokiofmidgaard 00:35, March 14, 2010 (UTC)