2099: Manifest Destiny

I would have added more, but I want to get my facts straight first. Most notably, I need the info from 2099 Manifest Destiny (which wraps up the whole 2099 series after it came to an end). I'm pretty sure the sequence of events is like so:

Last issues of Doom 2099, all of Fantastic Four 2099, all of 2099 World of Tomorrow

  • the phalanx invade Earth, melting part of the polar ice caps. At the same time the Atlanteans (lead by Roman) invade the partially flooded surface world.
  • Both invasions are repelled by Doom and the FF. Latveria's population is killed by a Necrotoxin. (At some point Doom 2099 returns to 1996 to try and prevent this by making his people immuse to the toxin before anyone else even knows it exists.) The rest of the world is left to rebuild.

In Manifest Destiny

Captain America (Steve Rogers) is found frozen in ice (again), and is given another item the found; Mjolnir. Cap takes on teh powers of Thor. I forget who, but someone puts a spatial barrirer around Earth. Eventually the heroes decide to do something about it, and fly out to space to destroy it. Cp is sent hurling into space, but first throws the hammer to Miguel. With the powers of thor and the barrier removed, Miguel leads the united Earth into a new golden age lasting another 1000 years. (again, I forget if the power of Thor keeps Miguel alive that long, or if the golden age itself lasts 1000 years, with Miguel's death going unmentioned.)

Since this is weird by any stretch of the imagination, I'm looking for confirmation from someone who can find or remember 2099 Manifest Destiny.

Added Spider-Sense

He has a version of the Spider-Sense in Spider-Man: Shattered Dimensions so I added it as a power. --Rnnlmb 19:20, February 2, 2011 (UTC)

Shattered Dimensions

How is this the Spider-man from Shattered Dimensions? His Kron Stone is Venom 2099. Isn't the one from the game Miguel O'Hara Earth-TRN129, or am I missing something? william slattery (Talk) 03:05, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

Split page

The Miguel O'Hara currently appearing in the Marvel Universe cannot be the same one who appeared in the 2099 universe up until its end. When this version of Miguel first appeared in Superior Spider-Man, Tyler Stone was in charge of Alchemax. During Spider-Verse, it was confirmed that Miguel had already met Strange 2099 and Venom 2099. In the original series, however, Tyler Stone was never in charge of Alchemax again after Venom 2099's debut. Tyler was in a coma after being shot by Conchata during Venom's story arc. After that, he was in a hoverchair and Miguel remained in charge of Alchemax until New York flooded, Alchemax was abandoned, and Tyler was killed by Atlanteans. Therefore, Spider-Verse Miguel's 2099 timeline was incompatible with Original 2099 Miguel's timeline even prior to the time-flux in Superior Spider-Man #17 that sent him back in time.

The original 2099 timeline through 2099 Manifest Destiny should remain on Miguel O'Hara (Earth-928), while the new adventures of Miguel in Superior, SM2099 Vol 2 and Spider-Verse should be treated as an alternate version on a separate page. Monolith616 (talk) 01:06, February 22, 2015 (UTC)

He's stated to be the Miguel O'Hara from Earth-982, and retcons happen all the time in comics. Look at what Venom: Dark Origin did to Eddie Brock. Arawn 999 (talk) 02:26, February 22, 2015 (UTC)
Then what format would you suggest for this page, and the two conflicting sagas?
(1) Draft the original 2099 series all the way up through 2099 Manifest Destiny, then start a new history section "At an unknown point in time earlier, Miguel's history diverged when he went back to the early 21st century"?
(2) Pick some inherently inaccurate point in the original 2099 story, say Miguel went back in time then, then write "At an undetermined point, Miguel returned to 2099 for the rest of these original 2099 adventures"?
(3) Reduce all of the original 2099 history to a footnote that no longer happened, like the Five Years Later future for LoSH, and write the history section without even acknowledging the 2099 Manifest Destiny future anymore? Monolith616 (talk) 10:31, February 22, 2015 (UTC)
For now I'd suggest making a note of the discrepancy in the Trivia section. Arawn 999 (talk) 11:48, February 22, 2015 (UTC)
That doesn't answer the question of how to format the article. Write up the original history then add the Superior+ adventures at the end as an alternate path, or try to stick them in the middle somewhere? Monolith616 (talk) 17:42, February 22, 2015 (UTC)

In Amazing Spider-Man Vol 3 #15 today, Miguel is referred to as the Spider-Man of "Earth-616, circa 2099". So the Superior and Spider-Verse era Miguel O'Hara is no longer the Spider-Man 2099 of Earth-928. Renewing request to split the page.Monolith616 (talk) 18:24, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Even if it was assured by Dan Slott, it can't be. Every reality can be the future of Earth-616. Earth-14412, Earth-TRN421, Earth-81551, and so on are as much of a future of Earth-616 as Earth-928. Every reality taking place in the future has been given a reality designation, because Earth-616 can end up being any of them.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 19:02, February 25, 2015 (UTC)
Someone asked about Marvel 2099 in #14's fan letter section, and it was confirmed that Earth-982 is the same universe as Earth-616, just in the year 2099. Arawn 999 (talk) 21:24, February 25, 2015 (UTC)
We also have to take into consideration that the Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 series is currently being written by Peter David, the co-creator of both the character and the 2099-universe, who was also main writer for the majority of Spider-Man 2099 Vol 1, and is currently also the writer of the upcoming Secret Wars 2099 Vol 1. If you've read stuff written by David, you would know that he has a good record of taking into account the continuity of both his and others' works, as well as making use of both popular and obscure characters, that both he and others has created in the past. In Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 #1, T.O.T.E.M. makes an appearance, which were an organization that first appeared in Spider-Man 2099 Meets Spider-Man #1 and its following tie-in issues, which were written by David. The Miguel O'Hara that appeared in those issues was the mainstream 2099-version that David created, as well as the guest appearances in other comics that Miguel appeared in, that were also written by David. Unless proven otherwise in future issues, I think it's safe to assume that David is intending to fit this Miguel into the past works that he has written, as well as the eventual endgame of both Miguel and the 2099-universe as shown in 2099: Manifest Destiny #1 (even though David didn't write that one).
KalKent (Anton) (Earth-1218) (talk) 21:47, February 25, 2015 (UTC)
Personally, I reach the opposite conclusion. I think PAD is writing Miguel as if the original ending of the 2099-universe never happened. The last two issues of Spider-Man 2099, World of Tomorrow, and Manifest Destiny only came about because of internal disputes at Marvel that led PAD to resign. The Phalanx, the flooding of New York, the Savage Land...those weren't his. And like I said earlier, it's not like you can wedge the Superior adventures in-between scenes of the old timeline -- Tyler Stone died in the original timeline before ever taking back Alchemax after Venom's debut. I think PAD is writing Spider-Man 2099 as if the events that led to his departure never happened, and the series was allowed to continue. Similar to the Deboot Legion from DC Comics.
But that's my opinion, which is neither here nor there. What are the facts? Well, we've got an in-universe statement that Miguel's from the future of Earth-616. We've got an editorial statement from the letters page repeating that point. We've got two conflicting 2099-timelines unless we split them. The only thing opposing a split is a wiki policy, rightly based on how the Marvel Universe used to work when it comes to timelines: There's no set future, and there are an infinite number of possible timelines. Well, not anymore. Time is broken.Age of Ultron #10 There are less than two dozen timelines in existence.New Avengers Vol 3 #29 The old order of the Marvel Universe explicitly got curb-stomped and left to die on the side of the road today.New Avengers Vol 3 #30 The old order changeth, and rules based on how the Marvel Universe used to work shouldn't be considered so dependable anymore. Monolith616 (talk) 23:01, February 25, 2015 (UTC)
I also agree that the page should be split, being that there is precedence for divergent Miguel O'Hara's out there as well as other editorial standpoints on similar characters who have recently time travelled. Frankly, the 928-Spider-Man 2099 has been an editorial nightmare with people adding non-cannon stuff like appearances from video games (Whoever added the Shattered Dimension stuff to the page needs to really do better research). I don't have a full working knowledge of 2099 continuity, but from what I can determine from my sources is that the original 2099 line has a beginning middle and end. Peter David being a writer or not is notwithstanding, to simply state "well he wrote the original Spider-Man 2099" is not a valid justification. Let's be honest and it all boils down to the fact that people want to make the Spider-Man 2099 featured in recent publications to be the original one that Peter David created. While that's a nice little pipe dream people are entertaining, I'm going to have to side with Monolith that based on what we know and what has been published that seems like a huge impossibility. Monolith pointed out a number of specific facts why that counter the established Spider-Man 2099 Vol 1 and characters not being in the right place or condition based on those facts. Yes, Dan Slott and the other Spider-Verse team kept referencing Earth-928, but also Spider-Verse (not to mention countless other instances) universe designations have been incorrect, miscategorized, or just down right wrong. The final authority on these things is the Marvel Handbooks. That said, why should the Spider-Man 2099 featured in Superior Spider-Man, Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 & the Spider-Verse cross-over be considered different from the Earth-928 version?
  • In Exiles Vol 1, the Exiles follow Proteus to Earth-928. In the original Earth-928 the New Universe character Justice is brought to 2099. In the Exiles story it's still Justice but he is possessed by Proteus. This created a divergent reality separate from the Earth-928 reality because not only did this happen in the past of 928, the Exiles caused a number of changes to that reality (IE: Spider-Man's identity being revealed to the Public Eye)
  • Precedence set by All-New X-Men: It is the Wiki's editorial standpoint that -- until otherwise clarified -- the events of the "All-New" original X-Men are happening to a group from an alternate reality instead of past versions of the 616 original X-Men.
Citing these two examples I think that an editorial policy should be set in that if a long running character is taken out of a some point of their past (meaning a point in their past publication history, or relative to the character's chronology) they should be considered a divergent version of the original established character until two things can be satisfied:
(a) The character is returned to their own timeline and it can be conclusively determined that their trip through time will have no impact on what their established fate going forward should be.
(b) Or Upcoming Marvel Handbooks clarify that this is the same character from the same universe and (hopefully) explains the continuity glitches.
Applying this to Spider-Man 2099, (a) Ignoring the continuity errors (Tyler Stone's condition/status as CEO of Alchemax), Spider-Man's knowledge of Venom and Strange 2099) we cannot definitively state that this Spider-Man 2099 will return to Earth-928. In fact even at the end of Spider-Verse he has not returned to his proper era, but an "Imperfect 2099". It's been previously established (in the Exiles) that past attempts at time travel to the core 2099 universe creates a divergent reality. This could be attributed to the fact that the core 2099 series has a beginning, middle and end, and not a whole lot of wiggle room for plucking characters out of an earlier point in time in that universe. Also, the regular Marvel standard for characters from the past (or a past relative to the established history of the character) who are pulled forward to the future, the only time this appears to not create a divergent reality is if they are returned to the past with no knowledge of what they observed in the future. The two points I can provide are two X-Men examples, in both Excalibur XX Crossing Special and Unlimited Access the original team of X-Men were pulled forward to the future. Their memories of the future were wiped when they were returned to the past. The key point of not creating a divergence is having no memory of the future it appears, or if key events are changed. Case in point, in the Exiles, the divergence happened when Proteus entered that universe, and further divergences happened when Miguel's identity was revealed to the public. Likewise, the Miguel most recently featured in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 was pulled from a point in time prior to later events in the core 2099 universe. Also Miguel was actively trying to change the future by maneuvering Alchemax in the past. On top of that, all the activities in "928" during Spider-Verse was somewhat disruptive, in fact Tyler Stone benefitted from that event in a way that has yet to see fruition in the current story line. Using the Exiles as the example, when reality jumpers start affecting the destined path of the reality, it creates a divergence. You could say that the moment that Spider-Man 2099 was placed in the modern age (and the Superior Spider-Man planted in 2099) it created a divergence. While it *may* have originally been Earth-928, the moment that incursion happened, it diverged into a new reality.
Applying point (b), initially in All-New X-Men in all intents and purposes it looked like these were the original 616 X-Men from the past. However as the series continued and the original team stayed in the present longer and did more things and interacted with more characters it became apparent that their being brought to the present created a divergent reality. I would argue that going forward, that Spider-Man 2099 has also pushed beyond the reasonable threshold to still be considered the 928 version as opposed to a divergent. Unless there is some magical fix that puts Miguel back to his proper place in time with no memory of anything he's done there is no way he could go back to 2099 AD and not take what he learned and change the course of how things went in that reality the first time around. Nausiated (talk) 17:28, March 20, 2015 (UTC)
The part about Spider-Verse's universe designations being "incorrect, miscategorized, or just down right wrong" is due to Slott stating that "[unless] mentioned in actual stories, designations in wiki entries and handbooks don't count." The editors partially rebuked that by saying that the Marvel Handbooks are canon where not contradicted by the material in-comic. The editorial FAQ at the end of Amazing Spider-Man Vol 3 14 further states that Earth-928 is the same universe as Earth-616, which I'm guessing muddies the water even further. Arawn 999 (talk) 18:01, March 20, 2015 (UTC)
I can't even say if it helps or hurts to mention this, but I recently re-read Uncanny Avengers, which introduced the idea of Seven Prime Timelines for Earth-616, each an equally correct version of the future. One of the seven timelines was 2099, as seen by Doom 2099 of the Chronos Corps. That could be how the reality we recognize as Earth-928 could be the future of Earth-616 as well. Miguel's future could be the Earth-616 2099 Future (1 of 7 confirmed futures for 616 as told by Kang and Immortus). Monolith616 (talk) 18:19, March 20, 2015 (UTC)
Even if we do split the pages, what universe designation are we going to give to the Spider-Man 2099 that appears in Superior Spider-Man and Spider-Verse? We can't just name it Miguel O'Hara (Earth-616) cause that future hasn't happened yet in the main universe. Also, the Miguel O'Hara is referred to as the Spider-Man 2099 from Earth-928. Take a look at Max Borne, he was killed by Chameleon 2211 in Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man Vol 1 10 and then later in Spider-Verse, he was later recruited into the Spider-Verse even though he was killed and we still consider him to be the Spider-Man 2211 from Earth-9500. Retcons can happen.Pokemonmewtwos (talk) 08:08, March 23, 2015 (ET)
Some guy being alive when we previously thought he was dead is a bit different than wiping out an entire established timeline to replace it with another. As for the designation, easy: Miguel O'Hara (Earth-616 2099). Monolith616 (talk) 12:27, March 23, 2015 (UTC)
I think we should wait until the Imperfect 2099 storyline is over and see the results.Pokemonmewtwos (talk) 09:08, March 23, 2015 (ET)
In Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2's Spider-Verse tie-in issues, Earth-928 designation did mentioned. That means writer Peter David considers it to be the same Spidey 2099 from his old series.--Primestar3 (talk) 15:01, March 23, 2015 (UTC)
In which issue of Uncanny Avengers are these "Seven Prime Timelines for Earth-616" mentioned? The concept makes sense with certain interpretation. The interpretation could be that Earth-616 will evolve to mirror any of those seven realities, but the fact that eight realities "are" the same doesn't make much sense. If this page had to be split, it would make more sense to give it a TRN than use the "Earth-616 2099" "designation."
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 16:35, March 23, 2015 (UTC)
It comes up several times throughout UA #4-22. I think the first oblique mention is Uncanny Avengers #4 in the flash-forward where they find the corpse of Immortus. Immortus's hologram lays out the details to Captain America in Uncanny Avengers #9 and Kang confirms some of it in Uncanny Avengers #12. In Uncanny Avengers #14, Kang recruits allies from seven different collapsing timelines, implied to be the Seven Prime. There are probably more references during the story arc, but those are the ones I recall off the top of my head. Monolith616 (talk) 17:08, March 23, 2015 (UTC)
We can't make a TRN just like that. Just because some material from new Spider-Man 2099 condradicts with older material doesn't mean it's a compeletely new universe. Continuity issues and retcons can happen all the time. Also giving a TRN for new Spidey 2099 is a complete misinformation because as I said before, Earth-928 designation mentioned in Spider-Man 2099's Spider-Verse tie-ins.--Primestar3 (talk) 17:10, March 23, 2015 (UTC)
The tie-ins say Earth-928 but, as mentioned above, the main series and the main writer of the event say Earth-616. Monolith616 (talk) 17:08, March 23, 2015 (UTC)
Primestar3: I'm mentioning it as an alternative if we had to separate this page from Earth-928.
Monolith616: Even if Slott stated it was Earth-616, the Marvel Multiverse is regulated by a set of unwritten rules. A future reality can't be Earth-616 even if it's said to be by a writer. As an example, Al Ewing stated that the Ultron-ruled future that was seen in Avengers / will be explored in Avengers: Ultron Forever is Earth-616 just because otherwise it would lose drama. The main writer of the book featuring this character stated it's Earth-928, and it can't be Earth-616.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 17:24, March 23, 2015 (UTC)
I think it's better to not split up this page. What if some Handbook confirms that they are same and explains continuity errors while we already made the page?--Primestar3 (talk) 17:38, March 23, 2015 (UTC)
I'll quote the FAQ at the end of Amazing Spider-Man Vol 3 14:
Dr. Joshua M.: "I've come to the conclusion that 2099 Spider-Man is from the future AND a different Earth, is that right? Sometimes some text would contradict that it's a separate world so I wasn't sure."
Nick (the guy who answers the FAQ's): "2099's future is in fact the 616. I think we may have messed that up somewhere."
So... it outright states that the universe Spider-Man 2099 is set in (Earth-928) is the same universe as Earth-616 but in the year 2099, and states that giving them separate designations in the first place was a mistake. Arawn 999 (talk) 17:40, March 23, 2015 (UTC)
But the creator of the Spider-Man 2099 along with 2099 timeline says it's an alt. universe.--Primestar3 (talk) 17:51, March 23, 2015 (UTC)
My understanding of it is that a lot of Marvel's alternate universes operate on the theory of branching timelines. Earth-982 is a timeline where Peter stayed married to MJ and got their daughter back from Norman Osborn. This is supported by Mayday having once travelled back in time (in Spider-Girl Vol 1 10 and Spider-Girl Vol 1 11) and met Earth-616 Peter, an event she references when trying to convince him to join the Spider-Army. Earth-928 is a timeline where Alchemax takes over the world and Miguel O'Hara becomes the new Spider-Man. However, what's unique is that events in Earth-616 have repercussions in 2099, hence why Miguel travelled back in time in the Superior series, whereas that isn't the case with other offshoot alt. universes. Arawn 999 (talk) 17:57, March 23, 2015 (UTC)
But isn't Miguel tried to change the future on 616? That means alternate universes/timelines in Marvel Multiverse. (I haven't read Spider-Man 2099 vol 2 except Spider-Verse tie-in issues.)--Primestar3 (talk) 18:06, March 23, 2015 (UTC)
So, as has been pointed out several times, (1) Superior Miguel's future has been officially referred to as Earth-928 and the future of Earth-616. (2) Superior Miguel's future doesn't synch up perfectly with the original 2099 timeline: some say that's proof its a separate timeline, some say its just a retcon / continuity error. (3) Even if Superior Miguel's future has diverged from Earth-928, the Marvel rules of timelines prevent it from being the unchallenged future of Earth-616. But, the Marvel rules of timelines are in flux considering the Seven Prime Timelines idea, Miguel trying to change his future from the "past" of Earth-616, and...well, everything Hickman's doing.
Did I leave anything major out?
So, what do we need to resolve this? What would anyone need to see to make them change their minds, or come down undeniably on one side? Monolith616 (talk) 18:08, March 23, 2015 (UTC)
Designations are actually important to M. Multiverse. We can't ignore them. Even if things like Age of Ultron and Incursions things.(Is AOU really important to Multiverse? It only transported some dude from a universe to another universe.)--Primestar3 (talk) 18:19, March 23, 2015 (UTC)
Age of Ultron caused a major rip in the time space-continuum which transported Galactus to the Ultimate Universe, Angela to the Marvel Universe, and caused the deaths of the Iron Man, Hank Pym, Wasp, Captain America and Thor from different universes.
And neither Age of Ultron nor the Incursions have ignored reality designations or done anything counterproductive.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 21:32, March 23, 2015 (UTC)

This Needs to be Resolved

Okay, here we are over a year later and wouldn't you know it: Nothing has been resolved. The current Spider-Man 2099 series continues on without acknowledging any of the discrepancies between the original Spider-Man 2099 series from the 90s and the current one. They have all been referenced above, no need to belabor the points already made.

Another point I should also make, and it's not discussed here, is that of the return of Punisher 2099. In the original 2099 run he became an agent of SHIELD under Doom's administration. He later *dies* at the end of his series. The current 2099 run shows him alive and well and very much not a SHIELD agent, and still a vigilante from the law.

The more Marvel keeps doing 2099 call backs, the more it's becoming obvious that everything *after* Peter David's original run is being ignored.

So we can finally put this to bed, I propose we do break up ALL 2099 profiles where characters are affected by these differences. I recommend we treat this in the exact same way we have treated the All-New X-Men, only in the opposite order.

(1) We accent everything prior to the flooding of Nueva York in 2099 by the Atlanteans and everything starting with Miguel's appearance in Superior Spider-Man as Earth-928 cannon. Because it seems that the flooding of New York is the catalyst point where things take a deviation.

(2) From the flood onto Manifest Destiny is an "alternate" 2099 that has yet to have a reality designation. It should be assigned a TRN. (Like I said, like All-New X-Men, but the reverse, because you can divorce that post PAD stuff from the rest without disrupting anything.)

(3) We also apply a TRN to the "Dystopian 2099" that Miguel visits later one where the new Venture comes from. It's clearly an alternate 2099 since the proper 2099 universe gets restored eventually thereafter.

Can we get a vote please. Yea or Nay?

If you're going to vote NAY, please provide a detailed explanation on what YOU think is a better solution to this problem.


Nausiated (talk) 20:33, August 30, 2016 (UTC)

I just wanna say that Maestro's reality doesn't need a TRN while the current 2099 does. The current 2099 is a divergent timeline from the original and from the flooded timeline.--MysteryScooby (talk) 18:47, August 31, 2016 (UTC)
I'm a Yea, generally, although I am confused by the current status of the 2099 reality. I haven't gone back to check, but I feel like Miguel's 2099 has altered multiple times since he came back in time. Do we think "Earth-928" is in flux, like a present-future version of the past-present effect Earth-616 suffered during the AoA, or are there multiple TRN futures in play? Monolith616 (talk) 02:29, August 31, 2016 (UTC)
I think that Marvel needs to explain what they're doing with ALL 2099 stuff (comics and videogames like Shattered Dimensions and Edge of Time), so I am Yea; I also agree with MysteryScooby: there are four different timelines, and I think there is a possibility that the current 2099 (Sinister Six) may be Earth-23291, the 2099 seen in Secret Wars 2099 (in the current 2099 there is also a version of Harry Mendez). We also need to know who is the new CEO of Alchemax in the current 2099.... I think that he may be Miguel Stone, since this 2099's Tyler Stone leads the Fist on Prime Earth.. Duellante magic (talk) 07:22, August 31, 2016 (UTC)
And about Punisher 2099 question, Earth-928 Punisher died in Contest of Champions (I think he was the same who appeared in the previous run of Spider-Man 2099 during the Spider-Verse event) and the new current Punisher confirms that the new 2099 is compleatly different than Miguel's 2099: in the new timeline, Gallows' parents were not killed, so he didn't became the Punisher and he continued his work as a Public Eye agent. Duellante magic (talk) 07:33, August 31, 2016 (UTC)
To be clear we need to clarify which version of the Punisher 2099 we're talking about here. The first incarnation of him, from the 90s, was depicted as dying in 2099 A.D. Apocalypse #1. This was in the original timeline which includes the flood and other incidents that have been ignored in the recent run of Spider-Man 2099 stories. There is also one that appeared in what we're considering an the "alt" 2099 post Superior Spider-Man who appeared in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 #7, who is alive and none of the late "original" 2099 changes are present (being an agent of Doom's SHIELD, and also very not-dead). I think there are three or four we can identify in this mess: The "original" Jake Gallows from the original timeline. The one seen in Spider-Verse, which may or may not be the same one seen in Contest of Champions. There's nothing that can confirm or deny it at this time. Then there is the one who has appeared in recent issues of Spider-Man 2099 that is still a loyal Public Eye member.
As for the other 2099 stuff, video games are not cannon so we can just outright ignore Shattered Dimensions and Edge of Time, they do not tie into Earth-928 in the slightest other than the fact that they are similar. I think this new 2099 being the same one as seen in Secret Wars makes sense but we need more evidence to confirm this. It seems like a good theory to start on since a lot of stuff touched on in Secret Wars is popping up in Marvel titles (Regent appearing in Amazing Spider-Man is a great example). I haven't read the last issue or two of the new series but from the cover where Captain America 2099 is crucified or whatever... It looks like she is known by people in that reality. It certainly looks it, but this still needs to be confirmed or denied.
Nausiated (talk) 14:04, August 31, 2016 (UTC)
You're a bit mixed up on point #3...
The "Dystopian 2099" that first appeared in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 3 #10 absolutely needs a TRN, but it's not the 2099 that Venture came from in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 3 #4, as that was noted to still be Earth-9200 as seen in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 #9-10. -- Annabell (talk) 08:07, August 31, 2016 (UTC)
Has it been positively identified? Unfortunately my reading of Spider-Man 2099 stuff skipped over Volume 2 presently (I need to correct that quick!). So far as I can recall, I don't think they ever explained who was responsible for turning the Dystopia into what it is was specifically identified in past stories prior to that. However, can we confirm that it's Earth-9200? I bring this up because that version of the Maestro met Spider-Man 2099 in Captain Marvel Vol 4 #30, is there some recognizance when they bump into each other in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2? Also another thing to point out is that the Maestro actually dies at the end of Incredible Hulk: Future Imperfect #2 when he is sent back in time and blown up in the gamma bomb test that created the Hulk. His spirit actually continues to exist on Earth-616 in Incredible Hulk #460-461 and was last seen in the Destroyer armor when the Hulk buried it in a rockslide.
Also when you compare it to the Sliding Timescale the math is a little off. Per Future Imperfect, the Maestro's future happened roughly 100 years in the future from that "present". FI was published in 1992, putting it in year 8 in the Marvel Universe. At the time it was published that would have made it 2092. However the timescale continued to slide forward. We're now in year 14, therefor the events of 1992 slide forward by sixteen years by real world time. So in "real time" the "present day" Hulk that first battled the Meastro in FI would have slid forward on the timescale to the year 2008. 100 years from 2008 is 2108. This implication is going to slide forward with each four year cycle of the Timescale.
Taking that into account it creates some interesting implications.
If the original Future Imperfect either happened before the year 2099 (if you go by the original publication date) it creates some implications here. Namely, if Spider-Man 2099 did appear in Earth-9200, but in the year 2099, it would have been AFTER the Hulk of Earth-616 sent Maestro back in time where he was blown up in the first gamma bomb test that create the Hulk to begin with. If you accept the Sliding Timescale math, it overshoots the year 2099 by nine years. (To clarify, the encounter between Spider-Man 2099 and Maestro in Captain Marvel has been identified in the Handbooks as taking place on Earth-9200 but before the events of Future Imperfect).
What neither of these scenarios explain is how the Maestro went from a disembodied spirit to having his body back. The Destroyer armor has been seen since Incredible Hulk #461 with no apparent trace of the Maestro still being inside the armor, but there's no explanation as to where his spirit went or how and if his body somehow reincorporated in his proper timeline.
The other alternative is that all the stuff in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 happens BEFORE Future Imperfect (which is the official explanation for the Captain Marvel story and the later visit by the Exiles). As I said before, I haven't read Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 yet, so I can't draw many comparisons between the two versions of Dystopia, but that would require some analysis. However, I wonder if this version of Dystopia might not be the one seen in Secret Wars (Earth-69413). Given my limited knowledge, it could be a considerable possibility as well.
Nausiated (talk) 14:04, August 31, 2016 (UTC)
I've read Spider-Man 2099 Vol 3 14 and I think that it's clear: this new 2099 doesn't need a TRN, because it's Earth-23291. Have you read this issue? Duellante magic (talk) 16:08, August 31, 2016 (UTC)
I haven't read it yet. Can you run through some of the things in the story that would support your position? (Try not to spoil the story as best you can though).
Nausiated (talk) 17:25, August 31, 2016 (UTC)
For avoid big spoilers about the plot, I can only say that some of the Avengers and Defenders members seen in Secret Wars 2099 make their apparence in this issue except for Iron Man/Sonny Frisco (that makes sense, because he is on Prime Earth with the Fist, as revealed in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 3 10) and Silver Surfer. And, in conclusion, this reality version of the Daredevil appeared to be Sam Fisk, who was the Daredevil in Marvel Knights 2099 saga. Duellante magic (talk) 17:45, August 31, 2016 (UTC)
That sounds pretty convincing to me. I'll get to reading it when I get home today and check it out for myself and get back to you, but it sounds like you're onto something.
Nausiated (talk) 17:55, August 31, 2016 (UTC)
The reality in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 3 #14 does not seem like Earth-23291 to me, in large part because they did not recognize one another; meanwhile Captain America was basically the leader of the Avengers, which makes the interactions all very odd, so I'd still advocate for a TRN.
In terms of confirmation of Venture's reality, it's explained in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 #9 that 2099 occurs in the Earth-9200 timeline before Captain Marvel Vol 4 #30, so only Miguel recalls the previous meeting, since he's now time displaced and Maestro is not. -- Annabell (talk) 00:10, September 1, 2016 (UTC)
You need to remember that carachters who where on Battleworld remember nothing about that period of time (except for Old Man Logan), and makes sense if they don't recognize Roberta, but is also true that they have to recognize her from their time on Earth-23291 before Battleworld. Since this thing is not happening, we can think that Roberta and her family came from Miguel reality, as it was stated some time ago... Duellante magic (talk) 07:50, September 1, 2016 (UTC)
I'm actually not so sure that the Atlantean flooding is the divergent point. An earlier topic in this thread noted that Tyler Stone is in charge of Alchemax in Superior #17, yet after the Venom 2099 story he is no longer in charge, and is also in a hoverchair (which he isn't in). It might be a completely different timeline (maybe taking into account the first few issues). A more minor detail I noticed is that Superior #32 (the Spider-Verse tie-in) has the Specialist, even though he died in the original 2099 #5, so maybe this diverges somewhere around then? I do think that Miguel from Superior #17-on and everything from 2099 since then should be considered a different reality also. That's how everything else that is subject to time-travel has been treated. So yea from me. Ben 1,000,911 (talk) 01:58, September 1, 2016 (UTC)
I just wanna point out that the current 2099 had a Spider-Man 2099, he is Miguel, and he's fighting against Alchemax. This could be explained by Miguel having a secret life, but not why he didn't try to fight in Secret Wars or why he was so protective of Alchemax law. Also, Miguel mentioned fighting Goblin 2099, which was after Tyler being dethroned if I'm not mistaken.--MysteryScooby (talk) 17:52, September 01, 2016 (UTC)X
There is also another possibility: in the alternate 2099 seen in Timestorm 2009-2099, Doom decided to die for some unknown reason, but in Timestorm 2009-2099 Vol 1 4 was revealed that he sacrificed himself in order to prevent himself to became the U.S. president in another 2099 timeline. What if the death of Doom of Earth-96099 caused the death of Doom-928? With Doom's death, Tyler remains in charge of Alchemax and others events happened in the same way as the original series except for Winston (Alchemax CEO Assistant), who was killed by Venom because he was searching informations about him for Miguel O'Hara: if Miguel didn't become the CEO, Winston would be alive. My theory can be confirmed in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 6, where Tyler is the head of Alchemax, Winston is alive, and Venom is mentioned by Miguel. Duellante magic (talk) 07:01, September 1, 2016 (UTC)
Hi! I've made a little research and I've found that issues that are not canon for Earth-928 and need a TRN are:

1) From Spider-Man 2099 Vol 1 43 to 46

2) From Doom 2099 Vol 1 40 to #44

3) From X-Nation 2099 Vol 1 3 to #6

4) From X-Men 2099 Vol 1 32 to #35

5) From Fantastic Four Vol 1 5 to #8

6) All 2099: World of Tomorrow Vol 1

7) 2099: Manifest Destiny Vol 1 1

8) X-Men 2099 Oasis Vol 1 1

I hope that this list can help you in some ways...

Duellante magic (talk) 12:58, September 4, 2016 (UTC)

Discussion Re-Cap

So I thought I'd recap, we've got four people (including myself) voting to split the Marvel 2099 stuff from the 90s at a certain point to differentiate between the gross deviations between the original 2099 stories and the current stories featured in the current run of Spider-Man 2099 run. So far nobody has objected.

This is the going idea on how we're going to tackle the problems with 2099 presently:

(1) We need to determine the split point between the original 2099 and the version that the current Miguel O'Hara hails from because they are clearly different. The idea would be that the CURRENT Miguel O'Hara and everyone from his "proper" version of 2099 get an Earth-928 designation.

(2) It can be confirmed that the "Dystopia 2099" is Earth-9200. It can also be confirmed that the events in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 that take place in this future happen before Miguel met Maestro the first time. Therefor every article that references these events needs to be corrected (IE: The Strange 2099 needs an Earth-9200 alternate, and the Maestro summaries need to be corrected.

(3) The current 2099 that Miguel has been visiting during the Civil War II event is an alternate. Possibly the version that has been seen in Secret Wars.

So I just wanted to add a few thoughts on this situation:

The 2099 Seen in Civil War II: There is a lot of circumstantial evidence that would suggest that this might be the same version of 2099 seen during the Secret Wars event. However, I recommend we wait until Civil War II to see if there is any more evidence to support this (Like a revelation as to who the mysterious Alchemex CEO is at the end of the most recent issue).

Splitting the original Earth-928 and the current one: As it stands right now, there isn't a full explanation how the two versions are different. I recommend that the best way to handle this situation is to only create separate profiles for the versions of 2099 characters seen between Miguel's appearance in Superior Spider-Man until he discovers that 2099 has been replaced with Maestro's Dystopia. To my recollection that includes Spider-Man 2099, Tyler Stone and Punisher 2099. There might be a few others I can't think of.

I think instead of applying a TRN for one side or the other we take a different approach. Perhaps we should only create separate profiles for the affected characters that have been seen on panel. How about we keep all the original Volume 1 2099 stuff the same, excise all the post-Superior Spider-Man stuff. Create new profiles for the affected characters. For all the affected characters we create new profiles and given them a Earth-928.2 designation as a temporary measure. These Earth-928.2 designations would only have information on the character post Superior Spider-Man.

Both versions of the characters would have a preface explaining the distinction between the two and that things are being kept separate until Marvel makes a complete explanation.

Lets put in votes: Yea or Nay.

Nausiated (talk) 13:52, September 6, 2016 (UTC)

I renew my Yea, but I think that the Strange who appeared in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 9 and #10 is Strange from of Miguel's world (the "new" Earth-928), so she doesn't need a 9200 counterpart profile. I also think that we need to consider "canon" everything before Spider-Man 2099 Vol 1 42 (Nueva York was flooded in the issue #43), so we can create new profiles like Miguel O'Hara (Original) (Earth-928) or Goblin (Original) (Earth-928) for "after-issue-42 carachters" and update other carachters' pages removing events that happened after Issue #42... If there are no objections and if you give me the permission, I'll start update everything that needs a revision. Duellante magic (talk) 17:42, September 6, 2016 (UTC)

I would prefer Miguel O'Hara (Earth-928) and Miguel O'Hara (Earth-928.2) to differentiate between one or the other. Putting something new in brackets (Original) and so on, is too clunky, and requires more typing if someone is typing in the URL. The Earth-928 version would cover everything from the original 2099 Run, while Earth-928.2 features stuff about the stuff that appeared in Superior Spider-Man onward. We should have a preface at the beginning of Earth-928 that links people to the Earth-928.2 profile. The 928.2 profile would have a preface that states that his history is similar that to the Earth-928, however some facts at this time don't match up and therefor are being kept separate to avoid confusion.
Nausiated (talk) 19:44, September 6, 2016 (UTC)
I think we should wait a bit more, let this arc end, we are currently dealing with 2 or 3 different 2099s that aren't 928, this Earth he is in right now is unidentified, he isn't in Earth-928, and we can see in future covers that another Spider-Man will appear, I think we should wait, instead of wasting time creating different profiles. This might event be Roberta's 2099 which we already have an Earth designation for. Edit: I remember a cover with two Spider-Man I guess it was changed. Anyway I say Nay for now, to me this is just another alternate reality, no need to split anything, just give it a TRN if it doesn't get a designation.(SunGodKizaru (talk) 21:50, September 6, 2016 (UTC))
On waiting: We've been waiting for over a year, for explanations. Are we going to wait for yet another year? We spent less time deciding what to do with All-New X-Men (create separate realities for all the characters), or Secret Wars. I've even reached out to Peter David for comment on Twitter and he refused to elaborate on what's going on. Looking ahead to the solicits for the next few issues, it doesn't look like this current arc is going to be resolved until after the new year (at least). I think "waiting to see what happens" is being too inactive on the matter. Ultimately, whatever happens can be adjusted accordingly after the fact.
Nausiated (talk) 22:25, September 6, 2016 (UTC)
I am in favor of a split, as we can always merge articles later if proven otherwise; however, I would suggest it would be best if we were consistent on nomenclature. If we believe the Miguel O'Hara from Superior Spider-Man is a temporal paradox originally from Earth-928, then he should be named in a manner similar to what is already established with Nathaniel Richards and others in that category. If we believe it is a reality other than Earth-928, then it needs a TRN. -- Annabell (talk) 01:16, September 7, 2016 (UTC)
I'll vote Yea but I'd like someone (maybe Nausiated who came up with this) to help me get this: so between Superior #17 and like Spider-Verse there is a different 2099 called Earth-928.2 right? And From 2099 Vol 2 #9 to before Civil War 2 is a second different reality (probably Earth-9200)? And now this is a third, probably the Earth-Secret Wars 2099? That's my understanding at least. From what I've heard though, things from 2099 Vol 1 #5 on have diverged a little. For instance, in that issue, the Specialist died, even though he has been seen in Superior #32, in Spider-Verse. Also there's the whole Venom 2099 storyline issue that someone brought up earlier. So perhaps we can make the split around #4 or 5? Ben 1,000,911 (talk) 00:03, September 8, 2016 (UTC)
Also side note, since Goblin 2099 in the Sinister Six 2099 arc is Father Jennifer, does that make the original Goblin 2099 her too? I think that is what is implied, since she can shapeshift. Ben 1,000,911 (talk) 00:03, September 8, 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, I'd be in favour of applying things as follows:
* Earth-928 for everything that covers events from Spider-Man 2099 Vol 1 #1 to 2099: Manifest Destiny. With no mentions of the new stuff.
* Earth-928.2 for everyone who has appeared in the "original" 2099 universe from Superior Spider-Man #32 until it was replaced from Dystopia. These profiles should just cover the facts that have been stated in comic. We can't assume that every event in this altered timeline. Instead of explaining everything that happened from Spider-Man 2099 Vol 1 from the start until where we think it splits is presumptive at best. There are too many differences to assume everything happened in the same way. Otherwise we should handle it much like we do with various other alternates when we add a phrase like "Presumably, their past history is similar to their Earth-XXX counterpart."
* Having read Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2, it would *appear* that the universe that Miguel visits is Earth-9200. The story event suggests that he appears before he first visited that reality with Captain Marvel. However, after reading we should apply a TRN to that reality. For a few reasons: (1) In the original Dystopia Earth-9200, the Hulk was transported back to the past of Earth-616 and was killed in the gamma bomb test that first created the Hulk. The Maestro in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 ended up using Doom's time machine to travel to present day Earth-616. I would opt for a new designation for all these characters. Except for Strange 2099, who claims that she is unaltered by the changes in the timeline so I'd concede that she is from the original Earth-928.
* So far as can be seen, the new version of 2099 appears to be the alternate 2099 we saw in Secret War. However, I'd like to wait at least when they reveal who the mysterious head of Alchemax is. If it's Miguel Stone, then I think that's our smoking gun in that regard.
* As for the Goblin 2099 issue... As I said above, if we're keeping the original 2099 stuff and the 2099.2 stuff separate, the unknown identity of Goblin 2099 in the original timeline shouldn't have any baring on who it is in the supposedly Secret Wars 2099 Goblin's identity.
Still re-reading SM2099 to catch up, but I hit a point of confusion: in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 3 #5, Superior Miguel and Cap 2099 discussed a shared memory. In short, Roberta mentions when she was an Alchemax test subject, she met Miguel and he hit on her. Miguel remembers this event as well. This indicates they're from the same future of 2099. However, Miguel doesn't remember a female Captain America 2099, and if Roberta were from Secret Wars 2099, like we've assumed, she should remember Miguel "Stone" as her immediate superior, not from some distant past encounter.
Now, it's possible Roberta was lying about remembering Miguel from that sole encounter, but its not clear how she could have fabricated remembering an encounter that Miguel also remembers. I suppose it's possible that time and memories are being rewritten, but then its almost hopeless to sort out who's "from" which reality. Monolith616 (talk) 17:35, September 8, 2016 (UTC)
I think it's possible that a version of Roberta exists in both realities and that a similar events happened in both versions of reality. Having a shared memory isn't really solid proof. There are countless realities where very similar events happen (take most any What If? universe as a good example) It should also be mentioned that Roberta's memory isn't that great, particularly given her split personality and her mysterious appearance on Earth-616. If If I could speculate, I wouldn't be surprised if Tyler Stone planted her in the present as part of whatever his plot with the Fist is supposed to be. Tyler strikes me as someone who could be unethical enough to mess with her memories as well.
Nausiated (talk) 20:25, September 12, 2016 (UTC)
The problem with her memory is that Miguel also remembers it, but yeah like you said Miguel could have flirted with an alternate Roberta in his Universe, and an alternate Miguel flirted with Roberta in hers.(SunGodKizaru (talk) 21:09, September 12, 2016 (UTC))
I've listed that moment in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 3 #5 as a mention of Miguel Stone (Earth-23291) and as a mention of Roberta Mendez (Earth-928) since they're clearly talking about their counterparts in separate alternate realities. -- Annabell (talk) 23:54, September 12, 2016 (UTC)

I don't want to spoil it for anyone yet, but I think we all need to read Spider-Man 2099 Vol 3 #15 and compare notes. There are complications. Nausiated (talk) 21:52, September 14, 2016 (UTC)

I've read it, what are we discussing, the fact that it was confirmed not to be Roberta's reality this week? it also clearly isn't Miguel's reality, so yeah they are currently in yet another different 2099. (SunGodKizaru (talk) 22:17, September 14, 2016 (UTC))
Yeah it turns out that the third reality from Civil War 2 isn't the Secret Wars 2099 reality, but yet another new one. I personally hate all of this nonsense. Ben 1,000,911 (talk) 03:21, September 15, 2016 (UTC)
Just read Spider-Man 2099 Vol 3 #15 tonight, no complications for me, my position remains the same now three weeks later, that the reality which first appeared in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 3 #10 needs a TRN. I also continue to maintain that we absolutely should not name anything "Point 2", that goes against our entire existing naming conventions and TRN system for reality nomenclature. (After all, we didn't call the O5 "Earth-616.2" did we?) Lastly, I'd like it if other people would address whether y'all believe the current Miguel is a temporal paradox from Earth-928 or from an alternate reality that wasn't actually Earth-928, because that lies at the very crux of how the split article should be named. -- Annabell (talk) 06:08, September 18, 2016 (UTC)
I'll state that the current Migs (from Superior #17) is an alternate. The original is from all of the Volume 1 2099 issues, as well as Manifest Destiny. Ben 1,000,911 (talk) 22:36, September 18, 2016 (UTC)
I feel it needs to be said for the record that Marvel is clearly no longer playing by the rules previously followed by this Wiki, the OHOTMU, and other publications, those being that any attempt to alter the past merely creates a parallel universe (Marvel Two-In-One #50), or any event that does change a reality like 616 is just another pre-existing reality in the multiverse being superimposed over it (Earth-295, Earth-58163) like the Handbooks say. Absent a new Handbook interpreting all this, we're going to have to make some sh*t up in order to chronicle this properly.
Back to the beginning, we have the idea that "Superior" Miguel's future is a possible future of Earth-616 (sometimes referred to as THE future in Spider-Verse), whereas previously Earth-928 appeared to have diverged already. I think this can be tied back to Uncanny Avengers and/or Age of Ultron with time being broken. Uriel and Eimin established there were Seven Prime Timelines emerging from 616 as a result of their actions with the Deathseeds and Celestials. Kang recruited Doom 2099 from one of these timelines. Even if we don't address it explicitly anywhere, I think that would be the first appearance of the Superior Miguel 2099 timeline, a 2099 that is a possible future of 616.
Under normal circumstances, this means Superior Miguel would be from a timeline other than Earth-928, making it a TRN. If, however, Marvel continues to assert that Superior Miguel is from Earth-928, that would ultimately mean the original Earth-928 (with the flooding and the Phalanx) would have to be rechristened a TRN universe now. (There's precedent for altered realities retaining the reality number of the original reality, re: on 616 and 295.) So I think we should make Superior Miguel and related characters a TRN, with the understanding that Marvel's policy on Miguel going forward may ultimately forced us to swap the TRN and 928 designations.
As far as the Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 and Vol 3 2099 realities, I think trying to untangle new reality designations before the story ends would be counter-productive. PAD obviously has some very long term plans he's running with here, and some distance and perspective will be needed before the Wiki can accurately decide what to do with these 2099(s). Monolith616 (talk) 13:33, September 19, 2016 (UTC)

Shall we put it to a vote?

Okay, so I think we have enough on the table to put things to a vote. I think that with what is presently on the table we can at least organize things in a way that we can stop things from being confused and, if needed, fix things as further developments explain what's going on. So let's get a final vote on what to do:

Voting Point 1:

I think we unanimously agree that the 2099 stuff from the 90s is separate from everything else that has come out from Superior Spider-Man onward. Since that universe has been designated Earth-928, we should keep everything associated with that run separate from everything new. A majority vote for Aye on this means we go through every Earth-928 profile that has anything published after Manifest Destiny as happening in an alternate reality until otherwise stated.

  • As a sub-point to this situation is the issue with Strange 2099, who has stated in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 that while "the" 2099 changes she does not, as such she would be the only character that is exempt from the above rules.

Risk Assessment: Voting yes, certainly keeps the original 2099 stuff clean and concise and we're not banging out heads trying to figure out how everything fits until the whole arc that PAD is working on is resolved. I think it's easier to keep everything separate and adding it later if need be, as opposed to adding it to the same profiles only for it to turn out that it is indeed a different universe and therefor need to be culled. I point to the mess that adding the Shattered Dimensions video game to Earth-928 stuff as a prime example for separating everything.

Voting Point 2:

That said, I think we're dealing with four different 2099's that we're dealing with in PAD's post Superior Spider-Man run of Spider-Man 2099.

  • TRN #1 would be for the version of Spider-Man 2099 that is currently running around trying to change his future. Characters in this universe include Miguel, Tyler Stone, Punisher 2099, and anyone else that I am missing (going off the top of my head here) that appeared in the 2099 that existed before it became "Dytopia".
  • This might be subject of a separate vote, but I think we can also assume that the Punisher 2099 seen in Spider-Verse is also the same one that ended up in Contest of Champions. This is certainly a different Punisher 2099 from the original given that in the original 2099 universe, Jake Gallows becomes an agent of SHIELD and is later killed.
  • Another point for a separate vote, perhaps we can assume that the Doom 2099 that appears in Uncanny Avengers is also from this same reality, since the original Doom 2099 became President of the United States among other things. The Doom 2099 that appeared in the Planet X story-arc appears to be a version of Doom before he became president.

A vote for Aye to this would designate applying a TRN to all the effected characters. Now profiles would need to be created for them and anything pertaining to the original Earth-928 would need to be excised from these profiles. I suppose a preface to each of these profiles would be akin to a lot of the "What If" alternates that have histories similar to their Earth-616 counterparts (for example).

Voting Point 3:

The Dystopia 2099 that was seen in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 appears to be the same as Future Imperfect, however as outlined above it looks like there is a divergence here. Mainly because Spider-Man 2099 is interacting with Maestro before he met him the first time with Captain Marvel (Time Travel being confusing and all that). The main reason I would suggest that this is an alternate Dystopia is because in this version Maestro manages to escape to present day Earth-616, whereas in the original Earth-9200 version, Maestro is sent back in time and killed in the original Gamma Bomb explosion that created the Hulk with his spirit still lingering around etc. There are also esthetic differences in Maestro's trophy room (different versions of the same trophies, trophies that weren't originally depicted that are not there etc.)

A vote for Aye to this would assign a TRN to Dystopia 2099, differentiating it from Earth-9200. All characters from Dystopia 2099 that appeared in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 & 3 would be assigned a TRN. Off the top of my head, this would particularly involve that version of Maestro and also the Dystopian version of Venture.

Voting Pont 4:

Is the Captain America 2099 appearing in the pages of Spider-Man 2099 Vol 3 the same one from Secret Wars 2099? Or is this a similar case to a character like Regent? The character was introduced in Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows and later appears in Amazing Spider-Man Vol 4, but they are two different characters. One belonging to Earth-616 and the other Earth-18119.

A vote for Aye will be a vote to separate the Captain America 2099 from Secret Wars 2099 and the Captain America 2099 appearing in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 3. The one in Spider-Man 2099 getting a TRN.

A vote for Nay will maintain the status quo until further notice.

Voting Point 5:

Applying a TRN to the version of 2099 seen in Civil War II event. Clearly this is yet another alternate 2099. A vote for Aye will assign TRN's to all affected characters, and separation from the Earth-928 profiles.

If you're voting Nay please provide an explanation why you think otherwise.

Summation/Risk Assessment:

I think for the most part it all boils down to what would be the easiest thing to fix after we make an editorial decision.

I think it would be simpler to create new profiles for what, at least on the outset, are alternate realities that are based on pre-existing realities. I think if we take a page from the All-New X-Men, it would be a cleaner break. If it turns out that our assessments are wrong it's easier to merge categories if we kept what's undetermined separate for the time being.

I think one way we can direct readers accordingly is applying something similar to what they're doing at the DC Wiki to differentiate from some of the more confusing elements that have happened during DC's New 52 and Rebirth events (An example: [1] )

What say you all?

Nausiated (talk) 19:51, September 27, 2016 (UTC)

1: Aye.
2: Aye.
3: Aye.
4: Nay, Roberta notes that she remembers Mister Fantastic is the one responsible for her coming from Battleworld to Earth-616 in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 3 #5.
5: Aye. -- Annabell (talk) 23:23, September 27, 2016 (UTC)

1: Aye. (So is he working with the real Strange? It doesn't seem that way...)
2: Aye.
3: Nay. (The Old Man Logan argument and chalk it up to sliding timeframe.)
4: Nay, she remembers the Avengers.
5: Aye. -- The preceding unsigned comment was added by MysteryScooby (talk • contribs).

1, 2, 3, and 5: Aye.
4: Nay.
--The Many-Angled One (talk) 03:31, September 28, 2016 (UTC)

1: Aye. (But I think that the Strange 2099 seen in Dystopia isn't the one from the original Earth-928, but the Superior 2099 TRN/"New Earth-928" version)
2: Aye.
3: Nay.
4: Nay.
5: Aye.
--Duellante magic (talk) 11:36, September 28, 2016 (UTC)

1: Aye, except for the Strange sub-point.
I don't think Strange is the same character across all dimensions, only that her magic allows her to sense that reality has changed around her. She's an alternate version with an alternate history, but just happens to remember the way things used to be before reality-shifted as well.
2-5: Abstain.
I know this plot has been going on for over a year, but I'm not comfortable weighing in on it before it concludes. Too much is deliberately confusing and unresolved by the writer. PAD may pull a "Mysterio 2099 was fooling with your perceptions and these are all the same reality!" for all we know.
Monolith616 (talk) 12:59, September 28, 2016 (UTC)

1. Aye, except for Strange, as Monolith said above. 2. Aye. 3. Nay. 4. Abstain, because though she does remember her Avengers team and Battleworld, this could have been another similar domain, like the new one in the most recent issues that we are discussing. It is very similar to the Regent issue, which I am also unsure about yet. Let's wait and see what's up before we hastily decide where Roberta belongs. 5. Aye for sure. Ben 1,000,911 (talk) 01:36, September 29, 2016 (UTC)

So far so good, I'm basically on the same page as the rest of you. The only point I wanted to expand further on is if Dystopia 2099 is Earth-9200 or another reality. So I decided to spend some time yesterday researching the subject. I read the last handbook (which was published years before Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2) to get the chronology and read each issue that pertains to it. Here's the order of events:

  • Exiles #78-79, the Exiles convince Maestro to help them stop Proteus. Chronologically speaking, it's the earliest point in history that has been visited in that reality. It's interesting to note that at that time, Maestro met a version of Spider-Man 2099 at that time.
  • Captain Marvel Vol 4 #29-30: In this story Captain Marvel (Genis-Vell) and Spider-Man 2099 (Earth-928 confirmed) were sent to Earth-9200 by Thanatos where they are tricked into fighting Maestro. The interaction is restricted to a short battle. It's interesting to note that Maestro recognizes Captain Marvel as a hero that existed in his past. Maestro never directly addresses if he has met Spider-Man 2099 before, but refers to him as a "wall-crawler" in issue #30. Although published prior to the Exiles story it's placed after it.
  • Hulk: Future Imperfect #1-2: The rebels against Maestro transport Hulk-616 to the future to fight Maestro. The story ends with Maestro being sent back in time where he is seemingly killed in the gamma bomb explosion that first created the Hulk. Point to note: Maestro did not know how to operate Doctor Doom's time machine.
  • Incredible Hulk #460-461: Maestro survived the blast and spent years luring the Hulk to the site to absorb Gamma Radiation in an attempt to restore his body. This wimpier version of Maestro later tried to defeat the Hulk in the Destroyer armor, but Hulk forced his lifeforce out of the Asgardian armor and the Maestro appeared to meet his demise in a rockslide.

All this compared to what we learned in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 #9-10:

  • Maestro doesn't recognized Spider-Man 2099, like the two had never met.
  • Maestro doesn't know how to use Doctor Doom's Time Machine, but learns how to when Miguel uses it and manages to escape back to Earth-616.

That said, this is particularly complicating because:

  • If Maestro didn't recognize Spider-Man and if we are to believe this is Earth-9200, then it would have had to have taken place prior to Exiles #78.
  • Maestro learning how to use the Time Platform is way, way before Future Imperfect.
  • Maestro escaped to the present day of Earth-616. This is problematic because from the perspective of Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 because if it is the same reality, the future version of Maestro (the one post Hulk: Future Imperfect) ended up and met his apparent demise on Earth-616 a few years in the past of that reality (as the Timeline is measured).

While we haven't seen this version of Maestro since Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 #10 there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that would support that this is in fact an new reality as opposed to Earth-9200. They are as follows:

  • Going back to the Exiles, in that same story arc (World Tour), Proteus travelled to Earth-928 circa 2099 AD. However his arrival resulted him in being pulled out of the Virtual Un-Reality machine instead of Net Prophet. This created the divergent reality of Earth-6375. That's because Proteus' arrival was in the "past" of that reality and was disruptive enough to the flow of events it caused a divergence because not only is there no Net Prophet, but also Miguel's identity was compromised and Hulk 2099 was killed.
    • Applying this logic to story in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2: Miguel ends on in Dystopia 2099. If we're to accept this as Earth-9200. Then it stands to reason that Maestro meeting Spider-Man 2099 before all the other times is disruptive to the flow of history. Namely, it results in Maestro learning how to use Doom's Time Platform and go into the past. It's entirely possible that he could learn about his future fate there (dying in battle against the Hulk at Ground Zero).
  • Using All-New X-Men as a point of comparison: The idea behind that story is that the longer the young X-Men remained in the present the more it created a divergent reality separate from Earth-616.
    • There is precedence for this as the young X-Men have been pulled forward in time twice before this. In Excalibur XX Crossing #1 and Unlimited Access #3-4. In both of those stories the original X-Men are pulled forward to the present and partake in battles. In both cases their memories of such encounters are wiped and they are returned from the moment they left. Thus, the events of XX Crossing and Unlimited Access are ascribed to the Earth-616 versions of the characters.
    • It's an issue of the time they spend in the "future" causing irreparable changes. For the All-New X-Men there are many: Cyclops and Marvel Girl's relationship ending, Angel's powers being enhanced by the Black Vortex, Iceman coming out.
    • Circumstantially speaking -- because we don't know what Maestro's been up too since arriving on Earth-616 and how long his stay will be -- He has been on Earth-616 for about a year in real time. Which is about the length of time in All-New X-Men Vol 1 where the idea of putting the young X-Men back became impossible without causing problems.
  • Then there's using the Earth-295 as an example. It's a reality that was created by someone going into the past and changing events that altered the history. Earth-616 was briefly replaced with Earth-295 as a result until the X-Men undid events. This created a divergence where Earth-295 endured and Earth-616 was restored. (House of M is another example of this, but is a straight reality warp that didn't involve time travel).
    • What created the divergence was when Legion went back in time to try and kill Magneto and accidentally killed his father instead. This was stopped when Bishop of Earth-295 went back in time at that moment and prevented the murder.
    • If you apply this to Miguel O'Hara, his "present" is that of 2099 AD, and something in the present of Earth-616 (his past) changed events so drastically that his reality was replaced by this Dystopia 2099.
    • If you accept this line of logic here's the rub: Every time a reality has been replaced with another, it is never replaced with a pre-existing reality. It always creates a new one unique to the circumstances. Age of Apocalypse and House of M are perfect examples of this.
    • Another example is Fantastic Four #153 when Earth-715 and Earth-74101 were merged together. It created a brand new reality of Earth-7412, replacing both realities. When Thundra tried to return to Earth-715 in Marvel Two-In-One #67 she ended up on Earth-8009 a world where Femezonia was not merged with Machus. In this case, the merger was never separated, the new reality endures and has a Thundra that rules over it.

Based on the principals and circumstantial facts that's why it seems more likely that this is a divergent reality instead of Earth-9200.

So far the only rebuttal I've gotten was "Old Man Logan and chalk it up to the Sliding Timescale"... Which... I'm going to have to ask for more clarification on that. But here are my thoughts on what was brought to the table:

  • In the case of Old Man Logan being active on Earth-616 and that apparent future he has some 500 years as a member of the New Defenders/Fantastic Force (which was seen in Fantastic Four #588). I think the same thing applies here:
    • People could argue that they will remain the same reality because from the perspective of Old Man Logan, his apparent transformation into the Hooded Man is 400 years in the making from his perspective (Since Old Man Logan takes place about 100 years in the future from the present) One could argue that the length of time and the tiny role that the Hooded Man played in the New Defenders/Fantastic Force run that you could feasibly place Old Man Logan back in his own time as though nothing happened and his timeline would go in a different direction.
    • However I would disagree, whereas Old Man Logan is the one first seen, I would argue that the Hooded Man is from a future that diverged from the base Old Man Logan timeline. Mostly because Logan has ended up in the past -- a past where the heroes have already met his future self, the Hooded Man -- and he could learn about what will happen to his future. Logan was already trying to change the future that is meant to be, I don't think he's going to let Earth becoming a lifeless rock some 500 years in the future happen either.
  • The Sliding Timescale...
    • Without more explanation on what is meant by that, I don't see how that would affect anything.

Hope this helps explain my position on the whole Dystopia 2099 thing. Nausiated (talk) 14:47, September 30, 2016 (UTC)

Ok, after reading everything, I think Nausiated is right, and Dystopia is not Earth-9200. And what do you think about Earth-69413 (the other Future Imperfect reality written by Peter David during Secret Wars)? Can this reality be the one that we've seen in Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 9 and 10? I think that this makes sense: the two titles are Peter David's work, and actually there is only one Maestro in circulation... Thoughts? Duellante magic (talk) 16:43, September 30, 2016 (UTC)

I don't think those two are the same either. Earth-69413 is more like a combination of Earth-9200 and Earth-1191 (or at least the characters that Peter David created for that reality during his X-Factor run). There's also the fact hat the Maestro of that world ended up being co-opted for the Contest of Champions and subsequently a prisoner of the Collector. It looks to me that the Maestro from Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 was being set up for something coming down the pipe either in later Spider-Man 2099 stories or some other title.
Nausiated (talk) 17:46, September 30, 2016 (UTC)
I'll vote in favor of a Dystopian TRN based on the Time Platform point, but it should be noted this entire explanation overlooks the fact that nearly everyone is saying Miguel from Captain Marvel Vol 4 #30 is not the same Miguel from Spider-Man 2099 Vol 2 #9 anyway. -- Annabell (talk) 19:08, September 30, 2016 (UTC)

Reserved TRNs

Per the discussion above, it looks like we're all pretty unanimous on this now. I've reserved three TRNs regarding this issue as follows:

I'll try to get to making corrections as time provides (I'm still deep in my Fantastic Four work) but if any of you want to get the ball rolling have at er. I'll be posting a public message to everyone so hopefully we can avoid people making confusing edits. Nausiated (talk) 20:46, September 30, 2016 (UTC)

Some Questions

How does this affect the 2099s from All-New X-Men Annual #1 and Marvel Avengers Academy? For Academy, I'd like to point out that Earth-928 was mentioned in-game.--MysteryScooby (talk) 21:05, October 1, 2016 (UTC)

That would be an alternate version of 2099, given that Tony Stark is Sorcerer Supreme in that world which contradicts any other version of 2099. Whoever assumed it was Earth-928 didn't research properly. As for Avengers Academy. I think in all cases where something is referenced in a video game we cannot accept it as cannon. Ever. Look at any video games based on Marvel Movies as a great example of this.
Nausiated (talk) 21:51, October 2, 2016 (UTC)
The game writer, and the game itself says he is from 928, the universe is mentioned more than once. I don't know why it can't be cannon, they have a person that was working on comics currently working in the games, is it ever going to be referenced? probably not, but those are the characters that are in the game. It's just a Spider-Verse like story, they came to the game universe to help Spider-Man defeat the Sinister Six, and left at the end of it, Miles, Gwen, Porker, and Miguel(a younger Miguel).
I pretty much didn't give my answer above because, like Monolith, I would abstain from 2-5, and also the 1st, so my opinion wasn't valuable to the conversation.(SunGodKizaru (talk) 03:18, October 3, 2016 (UTC))

After reading Uncanny X-Men Annual Vol 3 #1 and All-New X-Men Annual #1, I've seen that there are TWO differents 2099 that appear in those issues: in the first version (Uncanny Annual) Illyana Rasputin is the Sorcer Supreme, while in the second (numbered Earth-TRN591 in the TRN list) Anthony Stark is the Sorcer Supreme. Can you give me a TRN for the first 2099? Duellante magic (talk) 10:57, October 3, 2016 (UTC)

If we are now on 2099 subsject(not stricktly Spidey), there is also a new one on X-Men '92, and a new one on Deadpool, so in a year we have like 4 or 5 new 2099s, with no reality designations because Marvel doesn't care about confusing their fans.(SunGodKizaru (talk) 13:19, October 3, 2016 (UTC))
At the end of Spider-Man 2099 Vol 3 16, we see Deadpool (Warda Wilson) assassinate the skrull J.Jonah. Does that put Deadpool 2099 in the same universe as the Super-Human Registration Act Exists in 2099 AD (Earth-TRN590)? -- Fictional (talk) 02:44, October 14, 2016 (UTC)
That puts a Warda in Earth-TRN590; however, nothing else suggests it's the same Warda or reality from Deadpool Vol 4 #6. -- Annabell (talk) 04:03, October 14, 2016 (UTC)
Will there be TRNs for Uncanny X-Men Annual Vol 3 #1? And for the Deadpool Vol 4 #6? Or are we waiting for the Deadpool 2099 arc to end and maybe find connections with Earth-TRN590 if ever there are any? -- Fictional (talk) 08:01, October 14, 2016 (UTC)
Unfamiliar with the former, but yes to the latter, and with all TRNs, it's a case of assigning them whenever someone's willing to actually put in the work to create the associated articles so that they are more than just a bunch of stubs. -- Annabell (talk) 08:13, October 14, 2016 (UTC)
I'm willing to create/edit the TRN you'd assign for the Uncanny X-Men Annual Vol 3 #1. There are already two characters (Danny Warburton and Doll Warburton) from that reality but had their reality mislabeled. -- Fictional (talk) 14:16, October 16, 2016 (UTC)
Just noting that Earth-TRN640 was assigned to Uncanny X-Men Annual Vol 3 #1, and as far as I know nobody has yet expressed interest in working on Deadpool Vol 4 #6 so that's still pending. -- Annabell (talk) 05:48, November 24, 2017 (UTC)

Merging Pages

We should merge this page with "Miguel O'Hara (Earth-TRN588)" due to #6 of Spider-Man 2999 Vol 2 stating that the reality he came from is indeed Earth-928 -- Geek (talk) 12:31 November 24 2017 (UTC)

There's extensive discussion above on why that cannot actually be the case, as well as the subsequent community consensus vote on a proposed split to resolve the various discrepancies. -- Annabell (talk) 05:41, November 24, 2017 (UTC)
While Marvel regards them as being one-in-the-same, the wiki doesn't always see eye-to-eye with them regarding major retcons and chose to split them due to discrepancies arising from Peter David essentially disregarding everything that happened in Spider-Man 2099 Vol. 1 after he left when writing Volume 2 and Volume 3.Arawn 999 (talk) 06:49, November 24, 2017 (UTC)
Shouldn’t canon be more important than the community’s decision?
--Geek (talk) 7:36 November 24 2017 (UTC)
Not when the canon contradicts itself. Then the community has to weigh in on which official facts will take precedent in our chronicling, even if that means other official facts must be ignored. This Miguel has been referred to as the Spider-Man of Earth-928. He's also been referred to as the Spider-Man of Earth-616, circa 2099. And neither of those assertions matches Marvel's own rules of how alternate timelines work. A decision had to be made by the community on how to deal with it. --Monolith616 (talk) 15:53, November 24, 2017 (UTC)
Plus, realities are sometimes misnumbered, like Earth-807128 was a couple of times (not saying it's the case here, just that it's a possibility).
--TMAO (talk) 16:25, November 24, 2017 (UTC)
Weren’t the continuity errors chalked up to Incursions/The Timestream being damaged?
--Geek (talk) 12:33 November 24 2017 (UTC)
Please, take a moment to read the whole "Split page" section (including its sub-sections). I assure you the answers to all your questions are already there.
--TMAO (talk) 18:01, November 24, 2017 (UTC)
Just realized something that may be able to end this whole topic once and for all. --Geek (talk) 10:26, January 4, 2017 (UTC)

Expanded History

I’m planning on elaborating in detail on every appearance of Spider-Man 2099. Is it alright if I go ahead and make an expanded history page?--Geek (talk) 12:31

As someone willing to put in the necessary time to properly flesh it out, I believe you're welcome to create a Miguel O'Hara (Earth-928)/Expanded History article, as long as you understand the "Miguel O'Hara (Earth-TRN588)" split defined earlier in this talk. -- Annabell (talk) 03:26, November 29, 2017 (UTC)
Understood, though we should at least address the fact that canonically, the two versions are the same, in the notes or trivia sections.--Geek (talk) 10:18
The trivia section of the "Earth-TRN588" Miguel already notes that as far as Marvel is concerned it's all Earth-928. Arawn 999 (talk) 07:08, December 27, 2018 (UTC)

New Proposal: Keep pages separate, but swap universe designations

I will preface this by saying that I know nothing about the original 2099 and Manifest Destiny, having only read the modern series (Spider-Man 2099 Volume 2 & 3 + Secret Wars 2099). However, I have an idea that could possibly make pages more accurate while acknowledging the differences. In the Prime Universe, whenever time-travel results in multiple timestreams (House of M, Age of Ultron, Secret Wars etc.), the one that remains as the setting of future comics becomes 616, while all others become alternate realities (either with TRNs or proper numbers). Since Marvel clearly keeps using 928 when referring to modern 2099 in comics and handbooks, I suggest we apply the same logic to it: time travel can wreak havoc all around, but whatever remains in the end becomes the new Earth-928, while all of the steps in between become separate TRNs.

By this logic, most of the 2099 run from the 1990s ending in Manifest Destiny will become a new TRN (affecting a LOT of pages). The history on the new Earth-928 would be as follows:

  1. The history of this reality was the same as the [New TRN]. But then Age of Ultron happened and its history was changed.
  2. Then Miguel O'Hara was pulled into the past by Superior Spider-Man and the history of this reality was changed again.
  3. Then Spider-Verse happened and the history of this reality was changed into that of Earth-TRN589.
  4. Then because of Miguel's actions in the past the history of this reality was changed into that of Earth-TRN590.
  5. Then Miguel did some more changes in the past and the history of this reality was changed into its current form (possibly use Earth-TRN632 as it's clearly set in it's past).

In all of this, Earth-23291 remains on the side and cover only the Battleworld events, which nobody seems to remember anyway. Just like Augustus Roman in the Prime Universe is from 616, not Earth-18119, so does Roberta Mendez in Spider-Man 2099 Volume 3 come from Earth-928, not Earth-23291, although she shares backstory with that version of herself.

I realize that it would require changing almost every 2099-related page and I by no means claim to be correct, but I think this at least should be discussed and considered. As it stands, Marvel will keep using Earth-928 in modern comics, but people coming to it for information will find something completely different, which is not very helpful. HBK123 (talk) 09:25, December 27, 2018 (UTC)

This isn't how time travel works in the Marvel Universe at all as far as I'm concerned, so I can't support such a suggestion. (To elaborate further on what I mean, realities don't become one another, their histories don't change, rather they exist side by side simultaneously, and the points of divergence simply delineate where what was similar began to differ between two things that were always separate.) It's also worth noting that the Roberta Mendez from Spider-Man 2099 has to be from Earth-23291 as she explicitly states she recalls the events which occured in 2099 and no other reality existed in that domain except for hers, and it's not exclusive to Secret Wars, it has appeared since, in fact that's where the current Miguel went when he died. -- Annabell (talk) 09:44, December 27, 2018 (UTC)
This is covered way above in this discussion. In Secret Wars 2099, Miguel Stone is the leader of Alchemax and Roberta's superior. What Roberta who got stuck on Earth-616 remembers is the time Miguel hit on her while she was an Alchemax test subject and before she became Captain America. "Current" Miguel from 2014 onward also remembers that, meaning that he met Roberta back in Earth-928, but several years before it was actually 2099 when neither of them had powers. Presently, their pages state that both of them flirted with an alternate counterpart instead, which I think is a bit of a stretch.
But yeah, this is all very complicated. Still, I believe just swapping "Earth-TRN588" and Earth-928 pages around would still work, as it would at least be accurate to modern ongoing comics. HBK123 (talk) 10:00, December 27, 2018 (UTC)
re. AnnabelRice; that seems to have been at least partially retconned in relatively recent comics. A recurring plot point in Spider-Gwen Vol. 2 is that realities do (or at least can) become one another, and changes to the base reality can impact the offshoot realities -- which is also the main plot of Spider-Man 2099 Vol. 3, with Miguel mucking around in Earth-616 in order to restore Earth-928. There's a whole conversation in the Gwenom arc between the two Watchers that sheds some light on the subject, and the map of the Marvel Multiverse (a la the Web of Life and Destiny) that Utaa possessed shows Earth-8 to be a possible future of Earth-65. Also, IIRC one of the plot points of a relatively recent (as in, the last 10 years) storyline was that Earth-616 has several possible "alternate futures", with Earth-928 being one of them; and Earth-14412 is treated as the extremely distant future of Earth-616 by Jason Aaron's Thor run. Arawn 999 (talk) 13:43, December 27, 2018 (UTC)
You're completely missing my point, there is no retcon, all those "possible futures" exist simultaneously with all the other possible futures, as well as simultaneously with all the various pasts and presents. They don't sometimes not exist and other times suddenly exist, and they don't flip back and forth between designations within the same reality. Something that contains elements of multiple realities is in fact a third reality, distinct from the two it shares characteristics with, etc. The whole point of being "possible" is that it's a plot mechanism to explore what "might" happen without locking creative teams into what "must" happen. -- Annabell (talk) 18:24, December 27, 2018 (UTC)
You're right about all the "possible future" timelines coexisting, but by that logic couldn't any retcon a writer chooses to implement that disregards something another writer previously wrote (which according to Donny Cates is a common method of authorship in both Marvel and DC) be considered a new timeline? Dan Slott, Jason Aaron, Jason Latour, and Peter David seem to have disregarded that "alternate futures are actually parallel timelines" thing (which IIRC was actually a retcon itself) that was implemented after Age of Apocolypse and Days of Future Past, since in Spider-Verse Earth-616 Peter recognizes Earth-982 Mayday from when she travelled back in time in the Spider-Girl comic, Earth-928 is referred to as "Earth-616 circa 2099", and Earth-616's Alchemax is stated to eventually become Earth-928's Alchemax; Jason Aaron's Thor run has Thor Odinson being unworthy of Mjolnir well into the 11th century, despite the previous Thor volume by Akira Yoshida having him prove himself worthy when he was 16; Utaa spent the latter half of the Gwenom arc freaking out about Earth-8 -- which he stated was the "default" future of Earth-65 -- being destabilized and overwritten into a dystopia should Gwen kill Matt Murdock (which according to your explanation about wouldn't have happened), while at the same time noting that the act of Gwen becoming Venom gave rise to countless new What If spinoff timelines; and Tyler Stone's meddling with Earth-616 caused Earth-928 to be "overwritten" by various other dystopian futures, hence Miguel's quest to restore it. Arawn 999 (talk) 19:36, December 27, 2018 (UTC)
No, by definition a retcon is a retroactive change to existing continuity, not a "newcon" distinguishing an additional continuity. Anyway the reason they're referred to in the way they are (circa, default, etc.) is because they share similar trajectories, but they're not the same. No matter what happens, Earth-65 will never spontaneously become Earth-8. Earth-8 will always be Earth-8 and Earth-65 will always be Earth-65 no matter how similar the histories and events they share may be. When they talk about things being "overwritten," they're merely colloquially explaining how a shared trajectory is diverging. -- Annabell (talk) 20:08, December 27, 2018 (UTC)
That's not what's stated to be the case or even outright shown, though -- in the case of Spider-Gwen Utaa's map of the Multiverse/Web of Life and Destiny clearly shows Earth-8 as branching off Earth-65, and if what you stated was the case then anything that happened on Earth-65 wouldn't have impacted Earth-8 and he wouldn't have been so concerned. Arawn 999 (talk) 20:29, December 27, 2018 (UTC)

New Development: Manifest Destiny is Earth-96943

Per the Appendix, at the very least 2099: Manifest Destiny Vol 1 1 no longer takes place in Earth-928, but rather in Earth-96943. Given how all current comics and Handbooks keep referring to "Miguel O'Hara (Earth-TRN588)" and his reality as Earth-928, it is well past time that all "Earth-TRN588" gets merged or moved back to Earth-928, thus solving the current 2099 mess on this wiki. Discuss? HBK123 (talk) 07:57, October 9, 2019 (UTC)

Community Consensus Vote on Merging "Earth-TRN588" Back into Earth-928

Since apparently the weeks of discussion across the Database aren't already enough proof, in light of the changes to Manifest Destiny and Marvel's continued assertion in their comics, handbooks, and writer's statements that the current 2099 is Earth-928, all in favor of merging "Earth-TRN588" back into Earth-928 say "Aye" and all opposed "Nay." -- Annabell (talk) 00:56, November 11, 2019 (UTC)

KalKent (Anton) (Earth-1218) (talk) 00:57, November 11, 2019 (UTC)
--Nurdboy42 (talk) 00:58, November 11, 2019 (UTC)
--Annabell (talk) 01:01, November 11, 2019 (UTC)
--1137a (talk) 01:08, November 11, 2019 (UTC)
--TMAO (talk) 01:10, November 11, 2019 (UTC)
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 01:14, November 11, 2019 (UTC)
--Copeinator123 (talk) 01:19, November 11, 2019 (UTC)
--DaenerysTheMadKhal58 (talk) 01:58, November 11, 2019 (UTC)
--Ascha'Vovina (talk) 02:02, November 11, 2019 (UTC)
--Ershelby (talk) 02:06, November 11, 2019 (UTC)
--Ben 1,000,911 (talk) 03:24, November 11, 2019 (UTC)
--SunGodKizaru (talk) 08:58, November 11, 2019 (UTC)
Duellante magic (talk) 10:00, November 11, 2019 (UTC)
SuperFan24K (talk) 17:48, November 12, 2019 (UTC)

Old Man Miguel

Wouldn't the elder Miguel O'Hara in the current 2099 timeline be an alternate universe Miguel rather than the Earth-928? The 928 Miguel is currently in his prime on the former Earth-616 and his elder counterpart didn't travel to the new timeline.

MysteryScooby (talk) 14:47, December 18, 2019 (UTC)
The story establishes that Old Man Miguel is the Miguel O'Hara from Earth-928, aged into an old man after the 80 years that pass between the present day of Earth-Prime and the new 2099. Ascha'Vovina (talk) 02:25, December 19, 2019 (UTC)
Indeed, but any future of 616 is by definition is a possible "alternate" future. So, the Old Miguel in 2099 Omega Vol 1 1 is a potential future of Miguel, but not a definitive one. HBK123 (talk) 07:39, December 19, 2019 (UTC)
Except in Amazing Spider-Man Vol 5 #34, Miguel outright states that (in keeping with the editorial statement made during Spider-Verse that Earth-928 was always meant to be the future of Earth-616 and shouldn't have gotten its own designation) his timeline is different from all the other "possible future timelines" that Peter has encountered and that Marvel 2099 is part of the same timeline as Earth-616 with no branching or superposition. Ascha'Vovina (talk) 08:47, December 19, 2019 (UTC)
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