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Doctor Octopus Universe of Origin

I don’t know how to cite it but it was recently confirmed apparently the Doctor Octopus in this film is the one from Spider-Man 2 (Earth-96283). (User:SW-CanonDetailer01)SW-CanonDetailer01 12:31, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not sure why admins removed it. Molina states in the interview it's the "same role," the director told him that "no one really dies in this universe" when Molina was unclear why the character was still alive, and that early conversations about the role had it picking up from the moments after his death in Spider-Man 2. If nothing else, I think we should include a bullet point under his casting that details what he specified in his interview. -- Hulkophile 08:24, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
I think the part you're missing is, what does he mean by "in this universe"? 199999 or 96283? At best it's probably a version, and not the version from the Raimi-movies. Or we're assuming he's coming back to life, which we won't know until the movie has come out.
KalKent (Anton) (Earth-1218) (talk) 04:53, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Editing

Can someone remove the "View Source", please. - The preceding unsigned comment was added by AntoninMoreau (talk • contribs).

Due to the speculative nature of the information we have right now (and the movie may be different than expected), this page will remain locked until release date Copeinator123 (talk) 18:22, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Willem Dafoe

I'm surprised that Willem Dafoe has not been added to the article yet, since he's long since been confirmed as being in the film post-Trailer #2. Giftheck (talk) 11:25, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Uncle Ben

Hi, after seeing this movie I think it's pretty much implied that there was no Uncle Ben in the MCU. There's no grave next to May's, Peter doesn't even react when Tobey and Andrew mention their Uncle Ben, and May is the one who tells Peter the power and responsibility speech (and he acts like he's never heard it before), and the only other proof for Uncle Ben existing is that briefcase with his initials in FFH (Which are not even his initials, he has never had Franklin as a second name). In What If he is indeed mentioned and What If is arguably a branch off from the MCU but-- it is also another universe, I wouldn't put that as conclusive proof that there is indeed an Uncle Ben in the MCU, much less after this film. So I wanted to ask if maybe we could erase all the Uncle Ben articles from Earth-199999, since they are pretty much only speculation.

I also know that the briefcase was confirmed to be Ben's by... someone? I don't even remember who, I don't think it was Jon Watts though. But at the end of FFH, May asks him about the briefcase, Peter says that it exploded, and they laugh it off... so it would be weird if it actually belonged to her dead husband/his dead father figure and they acted like this. Red Nightwing (talk) 18:30, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Villains as Variants

I brought this to an administrator earlier, but got no response, so I thought I'd post it here just in case:

So looking at how the Multiverse works in relation to the film's villains, I do think that it's incorrect to state that these villains are the exact ones from Earth-96283 and Earth-120703, the way they are currently listed on the wiki. Think about it. We have the exact Spider-Men from those two universes appear in this film, and both have fought all of the present villains in addition to a significant amount of time passing. But with the villains, the spell brought them from back in time. Normally, if their memories were wiped and they ended up in the exact same situation as before, then yes, they would be considered to have come from those two universes. But instead, they go back to their universes depowered and/or reformed. This would, in fact, create a different universe each in which they reformed: one for where the Green Goblin got sent back, one for where Doc Ock got sent back, etc. These universes would also remain given Sylvie's dissolution of the Sacred Timeline. As such, I think we need to create five corresponding TRN universes for the five villains.

Any thoughts?Gemnist 2.0 (talk) 07:13, 18 December 2021 (UTC)Gemnist 2.0

Agree. I thought the same thing when I watched the film. MarvelBoy2002 07:38, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
It is said in the film that they are indeed from their universes. And I don't think that they were sent back in time, thus creating branching timelines. I think they all died and now they were taken to the present day of that universe, that means that Tobey and Sandman arrived with past Ock and past Norman at the same point in time, in a world in which they died years before (Same with Andrew, Lizard and Max). But that's my explanation as to how it works without literally de-canonizing the previous films, I guess we'll just have to wait until someone confirms what actually happens-- but in the mid time I don't think it's necessary to create new pages for these characters or reality designations. Red Nightwing (talk) 09:36, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
My interprepation was exactly the same: their deaths still "happened", but then they were pulled back from time and returned to the "present day" alive (something that happened many times in the comics). The intent of the creators was clearly to have them be the original versions rather than Variants and we should reflect that. Separating their pages into 5 separate TRNs would be unhelpful and unnecessary. HBK123 (talk) 09:39, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
Strange was intending to send the villains back to meet their fate, so the assumption that they were returned to middle-aged Tobey's time period doesn't hold much water. The simple act of pulling the villains out of their original reality made them variants, so TRNs should be used for them. It's Occam's razor, the Green Goblin and Dock Ock weren't blipped out of their respective movies back in 2002 and 2004, so they can't truly be the originals.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 16:15, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
I Agree with ADour, lets take The Lizard for example, he never died, but was pulled from his universe right before Andrew's Spiderman stopped him from lizarding everyone in Manhattan, so if he were to return to "the present" of his Earth, alongside with present time-Andrew, then there would be two Dr. Connors in that universe, (Therefore still making him a variant).- The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jorgito me lo pinto (talk • contribs).
Ditto. KalKent (Anton) (Earth-1218) (talk) 20:35, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
ADour, I respect your judgment but I'm gonna fight you on this one-- Marvel Database might be a fan site but it is still pretty official, it's very clear that many current creators and writers working at Marvel come check this out once in a while to check facts and making this official takes away some value from this movie (A movie that is arguably one of the most important Marvel films ever). Anyways, Strange did originally want to send them back to the moment they came from, but then Holland made him change his mind and he changed the spell, we don't know what the effects of this new spell are since it was not really explained in the movie-- but these versions of the characters are clearly meant to be the originals and, I might be going full drama queen here, but creating different pages for these characters is a disrespect to the vision, the creators, the actors and the fans themselves (since it would be pretty underwhelming). I say that we don't do anything until there is an official word from someone in the crew confirming or denying what happened after they came back. Also, Lizard is never said to have been from TASM1, remember that in the post-credits scene from that movie Curt still has Lizard scales in his neck, implying that he has not been fully cured so he might as well be from Andrew's present day too.Red Nightwing (talk) 22:36, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
Electro remembers when he was about to die, so it's possible that the villains were just resurrected in the MCU and not brought from an earlier time. And considering how Sandman knows how Doc Ock died and Ock knew how Norman died, that would be a lot more TRNs to assign if we are to assume their timelines changed. I assumed while seeing the movie that the villains dying when going back to their worlds wouldn't be reliving their defeats at the hands of Spider-Man, but returning to their dead corpses. I don't know what curing and redeeming them would have changed. In fact, I think curing them was actually so that they could live a new life in Earth-199999 if reality didn't fall apart. They may have still ended up dead when they returned to their universes after Strange wiped all memory of Peter Parker. Until we know what happened to them after No Way Home, I don't think we should waste TRNs. They should keep their films' Earth designations. SeanWheeler (talk) 23:22, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
As much as I would like it to be, the Marvel Database is not official at all. When it comes to matters like this one, all we do is try to make do within pre-established parameters. Both of your arguments have many assumptions as their basis. If Doctor Strange changes the properties of his spell is unknown, the exact circumstances of the villains' teleportation in and out of the MCU aren't known either. Working with the pre-established parameters in canon, what the villains went through in the movie would warrant them being variants. The Green Goblin simply can't be the exact same character from 2002's Spider-Man, and so on. The villains will be given TRNs. SeanWheeler might regard it as a waste, but lucky for us, TRNs are numbers and numbers are infinite, so we have plenty of them to go around.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 00:46, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
We don't know if the villains are variants either. Electro remembering how he died makes it seem unlikely that they were plucked out of the past. We need confirmation of timeline changes before we assign TRNs. TRNs are three digit numbers and we're already in the 900's. Do you even have a plan for when the TRNs hit 1000? The dead villains' last battles with Spider-Man were the last thing they remember before they ended up in Earth-199999. And we don't know what happened to them when they got back to their universes. Don't give them TRNs under the assumption that they are variants without actual proof. We're not giving TRNs to the novelizations or video game adaptations despite contradictions with the movies. There has been a Great TRN Purge to clean out some minor universes. We got a Character Index for characters whose Earth is unknown. So it does seem that this wiki has been taking measures to not have too many TRNs. The film has made so many continuity references to events from Earth-96283 and Earth-120703 that it's hard to see these characters not coming from those Earths. People are already guessing Matt Murdock in this movie and Kingpin in the Hawkeye Disney+ series are variants because they won't believe the Netflix shows are canon to the MCU. SeanWheeler (talk) 02:32, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

I too support the TRN assignments, Electro doesn't remeber dying, they seem to remember doing something and then nothing. They're about to die, this is the point they diverge. One Electro dies in the already assigned movie reality. The new variants get transported to the MCU and then returned depowered, presumably to the moment they departed as there's no indication except from earlier when Strange mentions returning them to die. If they had returned without being depowered and were just going to die, we would count them as the same, but with the intention of them being saved and continuing to live. These cannot be the same as the mainstream versions. Endgame's time travel follows the time travel logic that you can't change the past, so Otto knowing Norman dies is unchangeable, these have to be variants.

  • "Do you even have a plan for when the TRNs hit 1000?" Yes use 1000,1001, 1002 etc etc.
  • "We're not giving TRNs to the novelizations or video game adaptations despite contradictions with the movies." We've discussed this before, if they are drastically different we're not against assigning them TRN's, just someone has to be willing to work on them.
  • "There has been a Great TRN Purge to clean out some minor universes" So?
  • "We got a Character Index for characters whose Earth is unknown. So it does seem that this wiki has been taking measures to not have too many TRNs." This is created in part for very minor universes with very little detail or cases where we don't know or never see, what Universe they belong to, so they may be part of another already exisiting universe.
  • "The film has made so many continuity references to events from Earth-96283 and Earth-120703 that it's hard to see these characters not coming from those Earths." Divergent Earths can share the exact same history until a certain point. It's literally the point of What If?s
  • "People are already guessing Matt Murdock in this movie and Kingpin in the Hawkeye Disney+ series are variants because they won't believe the Netflix shows are canon to the MCU." The shows were making references to being within the MCU and have no current cotradictions against that, now they actually appear it supports it even more that they are. Unless something comes that means they cannot be the same, people's head cannon's are irrelevent Copeinator123 (talk) 03:36, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
Sure, Electro may not remember the exact second he died, but it could be like sleeping. I never remember the exact moment I fall asleep at night. I remember crawling into my bed, it takes a while before I fall asleep, but I never remember what that point was like to fall asleep. I never remember my first dreams after falling asleep. But Electro, he remembers overloading and his feelings of how he was about to die. If he really was a variant who was saved from his battle with Spider-Man, that would have to be an extremely close save. In fact, it may be almost like he's been Blipped. Also, Dr. Strange doesn't have the Time Stone, so he can't use time magic without it. He made a point about that when Peter asked him to go back in time to make it so Mysterio didn't expose Peter before Wong gave him the idea of an amnesia spell. So they can't be variants because Strange needs the Time Stone for the magic to create variants. There's no split timelines. No time travel. No divergent Earths. So no need for TRNs. We don't even know if they survived the trip back to their universes or if they went back to universes where they were known to be dead. Going by what's presented in No Way Home, they are the dead guys from those past films who have actually experienced their deaths, but didn't realize they were dead until it was explained to them. SeanWheeler (talk) 04:50, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
SeanWeheeler, please be more mindful. This is the second time we've had to explain to you that the number after 999 is 1000 with regards to the future of TRNs. Your conclusion comes from a place filled to the brim with assumptions and jumps in logic. Unless you can sustain your argument with things better than a comparison with yourself falling asleep, the discussion is over.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 06:16, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
Doctor Strange doesn't have the Time Stone anymore, so he can't do time magic. How can there be divergent timelines if Strange's spell doesn't involve time travel? You're making TRNs under speculation that is debunked by the very reason it was an amnesia spell and not a time spell. SeanWheeler (talk) 06:26, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
What does this have to do with the Time Stone...it's a magic spell that was cast over some magical connection to the Multiverse to wipe an entire planet's memory of a person, that when it broke, pulled people who were dead when other people were alive to the same place. Otto, Norman and Flint were each pulled from three different points in time, on the account that the others were dead from Flint's perspective. And these were not revived but explicitly pulled from the moment prior to their death. "Time magic" had to be involved, not seemingly intentionally on Strange's part. This argument is somehow worse than the sleep analogy as it seems to fundamentally fail at understanding what was even happening, again please stop. Copeinator123 (talk) 07:05, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
What proof is there that time travel is involved? It's all speculation, and they are clearly meant to be the same characters from the Raimi and Webb films. Could Electro be a variant who was saved at the very last second? Yes. But he also could have been the same Electro who we saw die in Amazing Spider-Man 2 resurrected. We don't know the complete details of the villains' return. But giving them individual TRNs under the idea that they may be variants mean we may have to create pages on all of their Spider-Men and the Mary Jane that Norman mentioned. Even though "Peter 2" is supposed to be Spider-Man of Norman, Ock and Sandman while "Peter 3" is supposed to be the Spider-Man that Lizard and Electro fought. Creating TRNs for villains who were meant to be returning incarnations would be a rash decision and a bad idea in hindsight when the creators confirm that they return to the Earths where they died and that they are the same timelines from the movies. We should hold off on TRNs until there's definitive proof of new timelines. No Way Home is canon to Earth-96283 and Earth-120703 until proven otherwise. SeanWheeler (talk) 07:43, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
Otto knows Norman dies, by Marvel's own established rules in the MCU, these have to be variants, there's no way around Norman going back alive to the moment of his death, continuing his life, and Otto still thinking he's dead. They're variants, or Norman instantly died, and it was all for nothing. We can come up with a thousand reasons to twist these into being the same. Norman plays dead until the "present day", they returned to the present, whatever Headcanon you want to make it. But that was not explained in the movie and that is what we go with. If months later, these turn out to be the incorrect move, we'll put everything back, with a couple of clicks and some copy and pastes. As you yourself noted, we've removed TRN's before. And you are correct, No Way Home is canon to Earth-96283 and Earth-120703, both Peter's are from there. The villians are variants of that timeline, because they interacted with the MCU and returned intending to live and are depowered Copeinator123 (talk) 08:09, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
Considering the timing of when Electro was pulled from his universe based on what he last remembered, Max is most certainly dead as he was already getting overloaded, and if the depowered Max was returned to the exact spot in space and time, he would have died from electrocution with no chance to dodge or explain to Spider-Man that he changed. And according to the Loki series (which is where the concept of "variants" came from), if you are going to die anyway, nothing you do would diverge the timeline as Loki demonstrated causing a panic among to doomed civilians of Pompeii. So they are not variants. They instantly died and it was all for nothing. SeanWheeler (talk) 16:32, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
Alright, I just wanna say that if the TRNs end up being created, they should only be for Otto, Norman and Electro. Flint appears to be from present day (After SM3), just like Tobey. And Connors didn't die in TASM and he was implied to not be fully cured in TASM's post-credits scene, so he might as well also be from Andrew's present day (After TASM2).Red Nightwing (talk) 17:47, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
Agree with the Sandman, uncertain about the Lizard, he was still a Lizard when he was pulled, and if I remember correctly, the dialogue suggests he hadn't attacked New York fully yet. So if he's de-Lizarded prior to that, the universe is different Copeinator123 (talk) 19:41, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
No TRN for Electro either, because we know he was already dying. If the villains time travelled, stakes around the villains dying when they return would have to rely on the idea that they returned to the exact moment they left. Otherwise, if time passed when they were gone, their Spider-Men would have walked away and Norman would have dodged his glider by the teleportation. In fact, we shouldn't assume the survival part of Peter's plan worked until it's shown. Peter doesn't know enough about Strange's magic, and the villains were completely unfamiliar with magic. And besides, if Strange can't do Time Magic without the stone, how can he accidentally bring time-travelling villains? Until there's proof some time travel magic is involved, we should just treat them like the resurrected villains the film presented them as. There's no way Electro could survive the trip back unless he returned to an earlier point in the battle and his reality is given two TRNs. And if they return to the exact same time they left, their trip to the MCU would have been so quick that nobody would see them disappear. Or it could be mental time travel like Days of Future Past in which their bodies wouldn't disappear at all. Or it could be that the dead was brought back to life in the MCU like what the film was trying to imply. It's best not to assume time travel was involved until it was actually confirmed as time travel. SeanWheeler (talk) 19:55, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
Are we really going to create TRNs for some unconfirmed fan theory? We have no confirmation of variants. Nothing is shown of what was going on outside of Earth-199999. Electro most likely died coming back to his Earth. And we're making five fanon-based TRNs. Why not contact Sony or Marvel about what happened to the villains before wasting your efforts on realities that may not exist? SeanWheeler (talk) 22:14, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
"Are we really going to create TRNs?" Yes.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 23:51, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
But for Sandman and Lizard? Lizard I may understand because he might be from during TASM (even though, he also might not), but I don't see why Sandman should get one since he is CLEARLY from after SM3 (just like Tobey).Red Nightwing (talk) 00:23, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
Our thought process is that because Sandman was not seemingly cured within Tobey's life (and he's from much further on than SM3) then he's probably a variant who was pulled close to the events of SN3 based on his human form. Copeinator123 (talk) 00:29, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
Okay, I can live with that. Regardless, if confirmed to be otherwise for these two specific characters, I hope you reconsider. I do understand the thought behind Otto, Electro and GG though, as I already said.Red Nightwing (talk) 00:40, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
Sandman's never even been cured in Spider-Man 3. After Peter forgave him for Uncle Ben's death, Flint blew himself in the wind. No prison. No cure. He just left in the form of a sand cloud, and that was the last we saw of him. There's nothing to change in his timeline, so he's not a variant. Also, splitting these villains into their own TRNs would mean every name they reference is from their TRN. So if Sandman really was a variant, his daughter Penny would have to also come from TRN927 and not Earth-96283. When Norman called Michelle Jones Mary Jane, he was thinking of the Mary Jane Watson of Earth-TRN925. Doc Ock was freaking out at Norman because the one from Earth-TRN926 died. And not to mention there are five additional Spider-Men referenced with one each from each villain's TRN. SeanWheeler (talk) 00:59, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
Bingo! Glad you understand how variant realities work Copeinator123 (talk) 01:10, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
And that presents a problem with Sandman. Nothing about him contradicts Earth-96283 so he shouldn't have been assigned to Earth-TRN927. In fact, we don't even know what happened to any of the villains whether they went back to alternate timelines or back to their deaths. We shouldn't assume these variant realities exist without confirmation. SeanWheeler (talk) 01:58, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
So you don't want us to create TRNs under the assumption it's possible that the villains returned to their deaths, despite the fact that outcome would completely belittle the driving force of the plot of the second half of the movie, which is that the villains are cured to prevent them from returning to their deaths. The TRNs have already been created. There is no need to keep trying to make an argument against that.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 03:48, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
The outcome of them dying may belittle the driving force of the second half of the movie, but making them variants would also belittle the hype of their return, since they are not the same villains we saw before. It's a stretch but there is a way they could return to their universes alive without becoming variants. If Strange's spell has some kind of moral judgement mechanic that saves innocents from death and lets the guilty die, then maybe that's how they end up back in Tobey and Andrew's worlds alive while their deaths are still remembered. Maybe they could even break out of their graves when they come back. I mean, how else can Electro avoid dying when he comes back to his universe? If he goes back to the same spot and time he died, his redemption would never save him. But if Strange's spell somehow gives dead villains a second chance when they are redeemed, that is the only way I can see Electro living. I may be speculating, but your five variant TRNs are completely based on speculation that time travel is involved when Strange doesn't have the Time Stone and Electro's last memory was when he was about to die. We should ask the creators what happened. SeanWheeler (talk) 04:43, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
I really don't understand why are you so adamant about your misconception that no time-travel was involved when Doc Ock is explicitly established to have been plucked out of the final battle of Spider-Man 2 right after he learns that Peter is Spider-Man, but I don't really care to delve deeper into these mental gymnastics. I won't deny that our position on the matter does involve speculation, but this is plain and simply Occam's razor. Out of two competing theories, one should select the one with the fewest assumptions. Our interpretation is also in line with the established parameters and precedents pertaining to alternate realities and divergences. Yours outright ignores what is established in the movie and is sustained by a myriad of ifs and maybes.
Your idea that these characters being variants somehow "would also belittle the hype of their return" is entirely a sentimental opinion and should not affect the way this issue should be properly dealt with: pragmatically. The variants are virtually the same characters with the only point of divergence being that these ones were plucked into the MCU. You can keep trying to make your case, but I don't have any use trying to convince you any further. On our end, the matter is closed and these characters will be treated as variants unless official word forces us to do the opposite, even though that would contradict logic.
--The ADour-incible ADour (talk) 05:41, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
I have carefully read this discussion page, but I have not seen a convincing argument in favor of assigning a TRN to Sandman. It is my understanding that you have come to decision because "Sandman was not cured within Tobey's life" (according to Copeinator123). But Flint Marko in Spider-Man 3 wasn't cured similarly. This argument was made above by SeanWheeler, but you ignored it. We discussed this matter with our colleagues from Russian Marvel wikia, but none of us understood what your decision was based on. We are ready to accept it, but we ask you to provide convincing arguments.
--Ultimate Moon Knight (talk) 10:43, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
I also don't really understand their logic, but I guess it's mostly to have the villains be all organized the same way. I also want to say that I saw the scene from the movie again and Lizard says that his plan WAS going to work, implying that it already happened. So, again, I want to make the case that Lizard, just like Sandman, should not be from a TRN. Regardless, I don't think there's any way to change the admins' minds unless direct word from the crew of the movie is given. Red Nightwing (talk) 12:10, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
Sandman is uncertain and could be the same, but it did boil down to " Do all or none", rather than sitting her and assigning one as the same, the rest as TRNs. That seemed like it would open a can of worms in edit warring and complaining "If Sandman's the original, why not the others". I'm still not convinced the ending of ASM with the Lizard battle happened from Curts perspective, from my memory, he hadn't done it yet (Meaning George Stacy would survive). but we're not laying down the law, other wikis can have a different interpretation and if some official sources comes up with an explanation of why these are the same versions, then the TRNs get retired. Copeinator123 (talk) 19:30, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
Well, you didn't give TRNs to the Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield Spider-Men so your "all or nothing" thing fails in that. I'm still not convinced the dead villains are variants as I have pointed out before, Strange doesn't have the Time Stone. And also, people have been resurrected in the MCU before, and sometimes coming back can affect their brains like when Harold Meachum came back as an amnesiac and had to see stuff to remember who he is. Electro didn't remember that he was about to die until the moment he said it. His face and tone of voice shows the shock of the realization. The villains shouldn't have to remember Hell to give us the point that they were resurrected. No resurrected character have said to experience an afterlife. And considering the botched spell was a memory spell, it's fitting that the villains would have some amnesia of their deaths. Giving them TRNs was really jumping the gun. SeanWheeler (talk) 00:21, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
There is no doubt that Norman, Otto and Max get TRNs. We don't know what is "afterlife" on Earth-96283 and Earth-120703 and we don't have to come it up ourselves. Besides, the argument about the Lizard is convincing: Kurt really was pulled from Earth-120703 before Spider-man stopped him. But the matter about Sandman isn't so clear. He was obviously pulled after the story of SM3. But Flint's fate hadn't changed by the time when he was pulled.--Ultimate Moon Knight (talk) 07:57, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
SeanWheeler, I'm going to say this once and once only, the decision to assign these as TRNs to villains has been made, we are flexible if strong evidence (from reputible sources) is provided, nothing you can say based entirely on your own interpretation of events will change this. Neither Spider-Men died, Tobey looked older and Gwen was dead so they don't create any divergence points so they are the originals. Whatever your obsession with repeating the same points that we activly and completely disagree with you on is verging on behaviour that is against the collabrative effort of a wiki, so please stop.
Ultimate Moon Knight, it would have been nice if the movie had just made reference to the point they were taken from but alas. I think it makes most sense for this to be a variant from Tobey's older perspective and Sandman's 2007 age (since the footage of the actor was archival) but that was not explained so it'll be unclear for now Copeinator123 (talk) 09:12, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Suggested edits

The article is locked for now, please add these appearances:

Morgan Stark's drawings of herself (along with Happy) appears in Happy's appartment, Howard Stark and Abraham Erskine's portraits are included in Peter's school mural, and New Asgard is mentioned on the crolling text when the Parkers watch the news.

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