Debut[]
The first appearance of the Venom symbiote is Amazing Spider-Man #252 and Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars #8 came out after that in 1984. Besides, Secret Wars is actually the origin of the Black costume in December 1984 and in May 1984 it was the real first appearance.
- The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gamma Venom 568 (talk • contribs).
Hosts[]
Ms. Marvel should be added as a host, shouldn't she?
- The preceding unsigned comment was added by Matthew Stanley Feldman (talk • contribs).
- When was she again? --Johnnybravo44 02:58, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
- Siege: Spider-Man #1
- - The preceding unsigned comment was added by Matthew Stanley Feldman (talk • contribs).
- That was fast thanks! Also, do you know when Wolverine was? I know it was somewhere in New Avengers.. --Johnnybravo44 03:09, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
- New Avengers #36
- - The preceding unsigned comment was added by Matthew Stanley Feldman (talk • contribs).
- That was fast thanks! Also, do you know when Wolverine was? I know it was somewhere in New Avengers.. --Johnnybravo44 03:09, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
- Wolverine was not actually a host of the Venom Symbiote, but rather a separate type of symbiote created by Doctor Doom based off of the Venom Symbiote's genes.
- — Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk • contribs • email) 16:48, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, okay. Thanks! --Johnnybravo44 16:56, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
- Shouldn't Flash be put higher? He is the current host of Venom after all...
- Liquidodeus (talk) 06:49, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
- Ah, okay. Thanks! --Johnnybravo44 16:56, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
Venom Deathtrike[]
I had a comic which was about venom bonding with Lady Deathstrike and a wolverine spider-man crossover, but have lost it and I can't find any information about it. Before you're bornDeath flashes before your eyes. 22:55, February 14, 2012 (UTC)
Ben Reily[]
It says on spiderman.wikia.com that Ben Reily was once a host of the Venom Symbiote. When was this?
- The preceding unsigned comment was added by Timothy Ngien (talk • contribs).
- As far as I know he wasn't. He was a host of the Carnage symbiote for a short time, but not the Venom symbiote. --Spencerz (talk) 02:54, April 19, 2013 (UTC)
- He wasn't a host, Venom prtended to be Scarlet's hoodie --MysteryScooby (talk) 08:02, April 18, 2013 (UTC)
Retcon of "Klyntar" name[]
Should the name of this page and the other symbioses be changed back to the way they were before since today's issue retconned "klyntar" as merely being their word for rage? --KurtW95 (talk) 17:34, July 25, 2018 (UTC)
- It's "cage", actually. Anyway, moving everything again is unnecessary given that the Symbiotes adopted Klyntar as their name following Knull's imprisonment, as explained in the issue itself.
- --TMAO (talk) 23:49, July 25, 2018 (UTC)
Chronological First Appearance[]
Deadpool's Secret Secret Wars #3 wouldn't be its chronological first appearance, would it? Earlier periods in its life -- up to its apparent birth -- have been shown via flashback. Arawn 999 (talk) 01:17, August 22, 2018 (UTC)
Its actual origin[]
The symbiote's origin is mess and needs serious clean up:
- First, I can't find anything that states that Knull had directly create Venom, not even in the actual source. Venom is not billion year old being and I suggest to remove this information or put it in the notes section.
- Second, the "second" alien host that bonded to Venom is probably supposed to be Tel-Kar, but retconned, meaning that this also should be removed or put in the notes section. (plus the Space Knight run wasn't very good)
- Third, given to the status of Deadpool's involvement with the symbiote, I propose to also move that information to the notes section, similar to how the Celestials conflicted origins are noted. (Celestials#Notes) HipperMario (talk) 15:12, September 5, 2019 (UTC)
- To answer your points:
- Firstly, I agree that the note that Venom's origins are muddled should be moved to the Notes section - in fact, I'll do so myself right away.
- Secondly, I asked the Marvel Live webcast if the symbiote Knull was shown creating in Venom Vol. 4 was meant to be Venom and connected to the flashback scene from Venom: Dark Origin #4, and they got in touch with Donny Cates and he said that it was. The webcast episode is Reference #9, but I'll post a link to it here: https://twitter.com/Marvel/status/1121141777816276992
- Thirdly, how First Host syncs up to the events of Space Knight is unclear, but Tel-Kar is stated to be Venom's first host and given that the symbiote's memories of him were erased, it would have believed that whatever host it bonded to next was its first host. While you may feel that Venom: Space Knight wasn't very good, others appreciated the fresh take on the character and were sad to see it cut short. If we're going to involve subjective opinions, I am personally of the opinion that the planet it was marooned on was meant to be the same one it took Flash to in Space Knight - the one its "first host" slaughtered, though that's not directly stated in the comic and all my attempts to get clarification from the writers on Twitter have been meant with silence.
- Fourthly, Deadpool's involvement with the symbiote being of questionable canonicity is already mentioned in the Notes section. However, nothing that Cates has done in-comic has directly de-canonized it, while Bunn has directly referenced Deadpool: Back in Black in the comics he's written - which would make no sense if it wasn't canon. I'd love to ask Cates for clarification on how he'd reconcile this, but I can't because he's already muted me for pestering him with continuity-related questions.
- Arawn 999 (talk) 16:08, September 5, 2019 (UTC)
- Alright, I'm gonna let this slide (even though I don't like this origin, but I can't do nothing since this is the source), but if we get a new retelling of its origin and it excludes those points, then I'm going to change it. For now, we're forced to live with this. HipperMario (talk) 17:18, September 5, 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's messy and full of inconsistencies, but that's what happens when you have over a dozen writers doing their own often-contradictory things over the course of thirty-plus years. The only other origin story we have for the symbiote comes from Venom: Space Knight and involves it hatching out of an egg... but that was iterated after the Symbiotes Hivemind had been messing with its memories in order to "cleanse" it.Arawn 999 (talk) 18:45, September 5, 2019 (UTC)
- I still think that the symbiote's conflicted origins should be moved to the notes section, exactly like Donald Blake (Earth-616)#Notes. Plus I couldn't find anything about Knull creating the symbiote in the link and there are already issues which are decanonizing Deadpool Back in Black. Plus eventhough Donny Cates had supposedly said that, in the comics there is no indication on that, instead it is established that the symbiote is in the 998th generation and the symbiote is shown as newborn in Venom: First Host (I'm.assuming this since when the Kree found it, it was similar to Sleeper, who was a newborn). I think that you aren't really doing this right. HipperMario (talk) 10:31, September 10, 2019 (UTC)
- That the symbiote's origin story is conflicted and inconsistent has already been moved to the notes section, and nothing in Venom: First Host suggests that the symbiote was newborn at the time - just that it was being shunned by the other symbiotes. Also, my question was answered at the 5:50 timestamp. Arawn 999 (talk) 15:57, September 10, 2019 (UTC)
- Well there is also nothing that suggest that the symbiote was creared by Knull, plus what timestamp, can you just tell me the name in which you answered becauce I only saw people talking about the netflixx series, avengers endgame and a ugly panda. I'm saying that we keep the information that we already know is true like "the symbiote was an outcast born on the planet where Knull had created the symbiotes. The Kree find it bond it to Tel-Kar and then it bonds to Spider-Man" easy. We can move to the notes section the information about the genocidal host, Deadpool's involvment with symbiote and its canonicity and that Donny Cates had stated that the symbiote had been created by Knull (since no actual source have been found) and if that was the case then why nobody is talking about this? HipperMario (talk) 17:48, September 10, 2019 (UTC)
- Five minutes and fifty seconds into this video. Also, even leaving aside Deadpool, the symbiote's backstory is more complex than just "It bonds to Tel-Kar and then it bonds to Spider-Man."Arawn 999 (talk) 21:06, September 10, 2019 (UTC)
- I didn't know it was a video, I am sorry about that. But in the video its just says if the symbiote is related to to Venom, not that Venom is the symbiote. They don't excplicity say it, it could be that the symbiote is the ancestor of Venom or the creature bonded to the symbiote is the same species that the symbiote first bonded to, for me it should be better mentioned in the notes. Plus, where does it say that the genocaidal host is Venom's second host, it could be that it was retconned out, since it is not mentioned ever again, like the scene where Venom was born from an egg. Since we are talking about Spce Kinght, I think you have the wrong idea about it. Yeak a lot of people may had like it, but most people dislike it and didn't buy it. That is the reason of its cancellation, low sales due to low reception. Leaving this aside, I'm still strong with my idea to move the contradictory information to the notes section, no information is being removed. This is useless complexity. You may think that I'm doing it because I don't like it, but this isn't the case. I also don't like the One More Day and the Sins Past information in those characters involved, but I'm not removing those since these are legit with no contradiction. However in this case, this is different, because I too know a lot of things about the symbiotes. Have you checked those pages that I linked here? Why can't we do it like those? HipperMario (talk) 05:28, September 11, 2019 (UTC)
- You have a point, but my question was whether the scenes were related. The symbiote shown in the flashback scene of Venom: Dark Origin #4 is established as being the Venom symbiote itself, which means that at some point it was present on Gorr's Homeworld, which in Venom (Vol. 4) #4 Knull said he conquered billions of years ago while setting up the Symbiote Imperium. As for the genocidal host, nothing indicates that to have been retconned out of continuity per sae, especially since First Host contains a few other nods to Space Knight. Sure, it could have been retconned out of continuity, but as I mentioned above it could be that the planet the symbiote was marooned on in the flashback scene at the beginning of First Host was the same one it took Flash to in Space Knight, and having lost its memories of Tel-Kar it just assumed that the genocidal alien was its "first host". However, unless either option is directly stated to be the case in the comics, databooks, or on Twitter they're both just speculation. In the case of Earth-616 Venompool, we have conflicting authorial opinions between Cullen Bunn -- who has made and may very well continue to make references to Deadpool: Back in Black in his comics; and Donny Cates, who has apparently mandated that it be disregarded until further notice. Unless those two decide to hash it out at a retreat or on Twitter or something, we have the unenviable case of one author treating a story as canon and another author treating it as non-canon, which in turn creates plot holes for the people who edit the wiki that we have no way of resolving. In this case, Cates' declaration that Deadpool: Back in Black is non-canon has already resulted in a plot-hole regarding Venom and Killer Thrill knowing about and recognizing each other in Poison-X, which was a pretty blatant nod to their fight in Deadpool: Back in Black.Arawn 999 (talk) 08:20, September 11, 2019 (UTC)
- I didn't know it was a video, I am sorry about that. But in the video its just says if the symbiote is related to to Venom, not that Venom is the symbiote. They don't excplicity say it, it could be that the symbiote is the ancestor of Venom or the creature bonded to the symbiote is the same species that the symbiote first bonded to, for me it should be better mentioned in the notes. Plus, where does it say that the genocaidal host is Venom's second host, it could be that it was retconned out, since it is not mentioned ever again, like the scene where Venom was born from an egg. Since we are talking about Spce Kinght, I think you have the wrong idea about it. Yeak a lot of people may had like it, but most people dislike it and didn't buy it. That is the reason of its cancellation, low sales due to low reception. Leaving this aside, I'm still strong with my idea to move the contradictory information to the notes section, no information is being removed. This is useless complexity. You may think that I'm doing it because I don't like it, but this isn't the case. I also don't like the One More Day and the Sins Past information in those characters involved, but I'm not removing those since these are legit with no contradiction. However in this case, this is different, because I too know a lot of things about the symbiotes. Have you checked those pages that I linked here? Why can't we do it like those? HipperMario (talk) 05:28, September 11, 2019 (UTC)
- Five minutes and fifty seconds into this video. Also, even leaving aside Deadpool, the symbiote's backstory is more complex than just "It bonds to Tel-Kar and then it bonds to Spider-Man."Arawn 999 (talk) 21:06, September 10, 2019 (UTC)
- Well there is also nothing that suggest that the symbiote was creared by Knull, plus what timestamp, can you just tell me the name in which you answered becauce I only saw people talking about the netflixx series, avengers endgame and a ugly panda. I'm saying that we keep the information that we already know is true like "the symbiote was an outcast born on the planet where Knull had created the symbiotes. The Kree find it bond it to Tel-Kar and then it bonds to Spider-Man" easy. We can move to the notes section the information about the genocidal host, Deadpool's involvment with symbiote and its canonicity and that Donny Cates had stated that the symbiote had been created by Knull (since no actual source have been found) and if that was the case then why nobody is talking about this? HipperMario (talk) 17:48, September 10, 2019 (UTC)
- That the symbiote's origin story is conflicted and inconsistent has already been moved to the notes section, and nothing in Venom: First Host suggests that the symbiote was newborn at the time - just that it was being shunned by the other symbiotes. Also, my question was answered at the 5:50 timestamp. Arawn 999 (talk) 15:57, September 10, 2019 (UTC)
- I still think that the symbiote's conflicted origins should be moved to the notes section, exactly like Donald Blake (Earth-616)#Notes. Plus I couldn't find anything about Knull creating the symbiote in the link and there are already issues which are decanonizing Deadpool Back in Black. Plus eventhough Donny Cates had supposedly said that, in the comics there is no indication on that, instead it is established that the symbiote is in the 998th generation and the symbiote is shown as newborn in Venom: First Host (I'm.assuming this since when the Kree found it, it was similar to Sleeper, who was a newborn). I think that you aren't really doing this right. HipperMario (talk) 10:31, September 10, 2019 (UTC)
Subjective dislike for the complexity of an origin story is not solid grounds for altering the accurate presentation thereof. I personally think it's well-cited and thus currently fine as is. -- Annabell (talk) 08:16, September 11, 2019 (UTC)
- Again, I'm not discussing this out of dislike, I'm discussing this for the sake of truth. The scenes being related doesn't mean that the symbiote is the same and since no one is talking about this means that it is not important. You seem to have ignored those issues which ignore Deadpool Back In Black like Absolute Carnage vs. Deadpool #1-2, War of the Realms Strikeforce: The War Avengers #1, Amazing Spider-Man Annual (Vol. 5) #1, the quote in begining of the page. What about the 998th generation case. That seems to still be intacted. This all just an assumption, not clear facts. Why can't we put this information in the notes section, just the contradictory information in the Celestials and Donald Blake pages. Even Miles Morales (Earth-1610)#Notes, Odin Borson (Earth-616)#Notes and Jim Hammond (Earth-616)#Notes talk about contradictory information. Look, I have been on Wikipedia and I know how this type of things work. Why can't you collaborate? This is needless complexity! HipperMario (talk) 09:27, September 11, 2019 (UTC)
- Look I have already dealt with similar thing here with the page Curtis Connors (Earth-1048). When this tweet came out by Bill Rosemann regarding the one of the covers for Marvel's Spider-Man: City at War #1, this led a lot of people think that that cover was canon to the game, and I included that information right here and here. However, here User:ADour removed all of it because in the tweet it didn't explicity said that the cover was canon, and I agreed with him. This is exactly the same case as here, unless it is explicity said that Knull created the symbiote, then it should be moved somewhere else. Don't you agree? HipperMario (talk) 05:19, September 12, 2019 (UTC)
- I feel like you're willfully ignoring the fact that you've already been shown where Agent M had Cates confirm the scene from Venom (Vol. 4) #4 is expressly an adjunct to Venom: Dark Origin #4. If anything this is the exact opposite of Rosemann intentionally being used as a false reference. -- Annabell (talk) 06:47, September 12, 2019 (UTC)
- But the scenes don't play out the same way! In Dark Orgin, the creature lais eggs and dies of natural causes. In #4 of Venom, Knull infects the creature with his abyss and sucking the life force as the creature crumbles to dust. What about this then? HipperMario (talk) 08:49, September 12, 2019 (UTC)
- Look, I'm going to repeat myself one more time: In the video, it is established that the two scenes from Venom: Dark Origin #4 and Venom (Vol. 4) #4 are somehow connected, despite the scenes playing differently. We don't know how without assumption. However, there is no indication or foreshadowing that Venom was created by Knull, nor from the comics and nor from the creators themselves. I already said that. (Plus if that was the case, this source would propably fit more.) Regarding to the genocaidal host, we don't if he had been retconned or not, due to not have been brought up ever again. It is also worth mentioning that in same issue, the symbiote is shown hatching from an egg, which already contradicts the established lore. Regarding the Deadpool's Secret Secret Wars #1 and Deadpool: Back in Black #1, it has highly conflicted. There are two talented writers contradicting each other. Bunn had mentioned these events happening in these issues, however there are other issues (not from Cates) that totally disregard thise events. In Amazing Spider-Man Annual (Vol. 5) #1, which is set after the publication of the Deadpool stuff and is a retelling of the symbiote origin narrated from the symbiote itself from the original Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars #1, the symbiote doesn't mention Deadpool at all. The symbiote said that it has been a long time swhen it bonded to such a belevolent host, indicating that the symbiote had bonded to another one before Spider-Man a long time ago, who may have been Tel-Kar or the genocaidal host, it is not clear. In Venom (Vol. 3) #157, the symbiote recaps its history with its hosts, but there is no mention of Deadpool. In War of the Realms Strikeforce: The War Avengers #1, Deadpool is disgusted by Venom, complaining that it is not the Flash Thompson iteration. This may be a reference from their time in the Thunderbolts (Red Hulk) team. However, you may interprete this in your own way. In Absolute Carnage vs. Deadpool #1, Carnage said that Deadpool only bonded to four symbiotes, which are propably the Hybrid symbiotes, and in Absolute Carnage vs. Deadpool #2, the creative team talk about the canonicity of Deadpool's involvement with Venom, but decided to disregard that.
Now, I'm not saying to remove all of this information, but instead move it to the notes section. In the Celestials#Notes, there are mentioned the contradicting information about the Celestials origin, like the Celestials coming from the Celestial Universe, the Hyperspace, or being created from Eternity or having a connection to Brio. In Donald Blake (Earth-616)#Notes, are mentioned the contradicting origins of the character, like if he was actually created by Odin or was he actually a real person with a past. In Odin Borson (Earth-616)#Notes, there are mentioned the contradicting information about how Odin lost his eye. In Miles Morales (Earth-1610)#Notes, there are mentioned Miles fighting with the Earth-616 Skrulls and his appearance in the retelling of Peter's origin. And in Jim Hammond (Earth-616)#Notes, it mentioned that the Human Torch had been raised in a test tube like a organic being.
Look I want to be clear, this has nothing to do with my dislike. I know that I might have gave the wrong impresion about me. I was indeed in Wikipedia but that is not important. I just to make this article with good quality. This type of information will confuse the readers, I know I was. I want to make good in this wiki. I'm sure we can find way if we all collaborate together. If this doesn't convince you, then I don't know what will. HipperMario (talk) 17:05, September 12, 2019 (UTC)- Tucker Chet Markus seems to have mistakenly assumed my question to Mr. Cates was about the aliens from that scene, and he also seems to have misquoted Mr. Cates' reply from what was stated by Ryan Penagos in the Marvel Live video. I've messaged the Marvel site about it, but they haven't responded. Also, nothing suggests that the alien Knull was shown killing (?) was the exact same one that gave birth to the babies the Venom symbiote saved, just that it was a member of the same species. Arawn 999 (talk) 17:14, September 12, 2019 (UTC)
- Then why would you assume that Knull created Venom? It.could be that Venom's ancestors remained and reprodeuced on the planet where Knull created the symbiotes. HipperMario (talk) 04:48, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
- That was a possibility I had considered, but I dismissed it as Knull would likely have scoured all life from that planet when he conquered it, and (from what I recall) the post-Knull Symbiote Imperium is known for wiping out the planets they conquer as well. The fact that Venom's Knull-corrupted form was called "Ancient Venom" in Spider-Man: Unlimited mobile game made me wonder if the scene from Venom Vol 4 4 where Knull was shown creating the first traditional symbiote was meant to lead into the scene from Venom: Dark Origin where the Venom symbiote saved the baby lion-rat aliens. And then there was the fact that the symbiote Knull created had red eyes and the Venom symbiote's eyes turned red when he was corrupting it, which made me wonder if that was just a coincidence or Ryan Stegman's way of cluing the readers in that they are one-and-the-same. When the Marvel Live Twitter page was soliciting questions for an AMA, I decided to submit my inquiry regarding Venom being the symbiote Knull was shown creating, and was surprised when they chose it for the AMA. I would have asked Cates directly, but he had already muted me on Twitter for asking him about clarification about sundry unclear plot details and continuity errors. Arawn 999 (talk) 05:07, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
- Other symbiotes corrupted by Knull had their eyes turned red, like Scream, Hybrid symbiotes and Sleeper. In the flashback, most symbiotes are black with red eyes. Venom could be a genetic throwback. Plus, Knull created the symbiotes as tools, not as beings with emotions, so why would he gave the symbiotes the ability to reproduce? I like to think that the symbiotes after being free from Knull started evolving and eventually they got the ability to reproduce asexually. Another to worth noting is that the artists like to decorate stuff if you know what I mean, like in the flashback, the Celestials are shown creating planets, but we know that that not true. Maybe the symbiote shown Knull creating is an ancestor of Venom. But this is whole speculation, so I will leave you to decide and we still need to talk about the other points that I mentioned above. HipperMario (talk) 06:04, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
- Look we are atill talking about this, okay? You sure take a lot of time in responding don't you? I actually think we are getting somewhere. So do you agree with my points or not? HipperMario (talk) 06:24, September 14, 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, I've been a bit busy for the last few days. To answer your questions: Knull would likely give the symbiotes the ability to reproduce asexually so that they could (relatively) quickly infect and overwhelm planets. Not sure what you mean by the Celestials creating planets not being true, but the symbiote shown on Gorr's homeworld in Venom: Dark Origin #4 is stated to be the Venom symbiote in the comic itself. Donny Cates occasionally does AMAs on Twitter and Ryan Stegman's podcast frequently takes fan-questions, so if you'd like to ask them if the symbiote Knull was shown creating is meant to be the Venom symbiote and tie into Venom: Dark Origin #4 or not, feel free. I'd do so - and have done so - myself, but since it appears that I've been muted my chances of being answered are slim-to-none. And if turns out that it isn't the Venom symbiote and/or connected to the Dark Origin flashback, I'll happily - well, not happily - admit that I was wrong, edit the page accordingly, and be disappointed that Cates misinterpreted my earlier question. Deadpool's section being ambiguously canon is already noted in he Notes section. And yes, other writers aside from Cates have expressed disdain towards Secret Secret Wars and Back in Black and chosen to ignore them, and we could comment that section of the History section out, but - again - it not being canon opens up plot holes regarding other works that Cullen Bunn has written -- some of which Cates has acknowledged as being canon. As for the genocidal host, just because he only appeared once and hasn't been referenced since doesn't mean he's not canon. For all we know he could get the Leonard Elkhart (who doesn't appear in the symbiote's rundown of its hosts either) treatment and be the subject of a one-shot 30 or so years down the line. Arawn 999 (talk) 17:37, September 14, 2019 (UTC)
- Look we are atill talking about this, okay? You sure take a lot of time in responding don't you? I actually think we are getting somewhere. So do you agree with my points or not? HipperMario (talk) 06:24, September 14, 2019 (UTC)
- Other symbiotes corrupted by Knull had their eyes turned red, like Scream, Hybrid symbiotes and Sleeper. In the flashback, most symbiotes are black with red eyes. Venom could be a genetic throwback. Plus, Knull created the symbiotes as tools, not as beings with emotions, so why would he gave the symbiotes the ability to reproduce? I like to think that the symbiotes after being free from Knull started evolving and eventually they got the ability to reproduce asexually. Another to worth noting is that the artists like to decorate stuff if you know what I mean, like in the flashback, the Celestials are shown creating planets, but we know that that not true. Maybe the symbiote shown Knull creating is an ancestor of Venom. But this is whole speculation, so I will leave you to decide and we still need to talk about the other points that I mentioned above. HipperMario (talk) 06:04, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
- That was a possibility I had considered, but I dismissed it as Knull would likely have scoured all life from that planet when he conquered it, and (from what I recall) the post-Knull Symbiote Imperium is known for wiping out the planets they conquer as well. The fact that Venom's Knull-corrupted form was called "Ancient Venom" in Spider-Man: Unlimited mobile game made me wonder if the scene from Venom Vol 4 4 where Knull was shown creating the first traditional symbiote was meant to lead into the scene from Venom: Dark Origin where the Venom symbiote saved the baby lion-rat aliens. And then there was the fact that the symbiote Knull created had red eyes and the Venom symbiote's eyes turned red when he was corrupting it, which made me wonder if that was just a coincidence or Ryan Stegman's way of cluing the readers in that they are one-and-the-same. When the Marvel Live Twitter page was soliciting questions for an AMA, I decided to submit my inquiry regarding Venom being the symbiote Knull was shown creating, and was surprised when they chose it for the AMA. I would have asked Cates directly, but he had already muted me on Twitter for asking him about clarification about sundry unclear plot details and continuity errors. Arawn 999 (talk) 05:07, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
- Then why would you assume that Knull created Venom? It.could be that Venom's ancestors remained and reprodeuced on the planet where Knull created the symbiotes. HipperMario (talk) 04:48, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
- Tucker Chet Markus seems to have mistakenly assumed my question to Mr. Cates was about the aliens from that scene, and he also seems to have misquoted Mr. Cates' reply from what was stated by Ryan Penagos in the Marvel Live video. I've messaged the Marvel site about it, but they haven't responded. Also, nothing suggests that the alien Knull was shown killing (?) was the exact same one that gave birth to the babies the Venom symbiote saved, just that it was a member of the same species. Arawn 999 (talk) 17:14, September 12, 2019 (UTC)
- Look, I'm going to repeat myself one more time: In the video, it is established that the two scenes from Venom: Dark Origin #4 and Venom (Vol. 4) #4 are somehow connected, despite the scenes playing differently. We don't know how without assumption. However, there is no indication or foreshadowing that Venom was created by Knull, nor from the comics and nor from the creators themselves. I already said that. (Plus if that was the case, this source would propably fit more.) Regarding to the genocaidal host, we don't if he had been retconned or not, due to not have been brought up ever again. It is also worth mentioning that in same issue, the symbiote is shown hatching from an egg, which already contradicts the established lore. Regarding the Deadpool's Secret Secret Wars #1 and Deadpool: Back in Black #1, it has highly conflicted. There are two talented writers contradicting each other. Bunn had mentioned these events happening in these issues, however there are other issues (not from Cates) that totally disregard thise events. In Amazing Spider-Man Annual (Vol. 5) #1, which is set after the publication of the Deadpool stuff and is a retelling of the symbiote origin narrated from the symbiote itself from the original Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars #1, the symbiote doesn't mention Deadpool at all. The symbiote said that it has been a long time swhen it bonded to such a belevolent host, indicating that the symbiote had bonded to another one before Spider-Man a long time ago, who may have been Tel-Kar or the genocaidal host, it is not clear. In Venom (Vol. 3) #157, the symbiote recaps its history with its hosts, but there is no mention of Deadpool. In War of the Realms Strikeforce: The War Avengers #1, Deadpool is disgusted by Venom, complaining that it is not the Flash Thompson iteration. This may be a reference from their time in the Thunderbolts (Red Hulk) team. However, you may interprete this in your own way. In Absolute Carnage vs. Deadpool #1, Carnage said that Deadpool only bonded to four symbiotes, which are propably the Hybrid symbiotes, and in Absolute Carnage vs. Deadpool #2, the creative team talk about the canonicity of Deadpool's involvement with Venom, but decided to disregard that.
- But the scenes don't play out the same way! In Dark Orgin, the creature lais eggs and dies of natural causes. In #4 of Venom, Knull infects the creature with his abyss and sucking the life force as the creature crumbles to dust. What about this then? HipperMario (talk) 08:49, September 12, 2019 (UTC)
- I feel like you're willfully ignoring the fact that you've already been shown where Agent M had Cates confirm the scene from Venom (Vol. 4) #4 is expressly an adjunct to Venom: Dark Origin #4. If anything this is the exact opposite of Rosemann intentionally being used as a false reference. -- Annabell (talk) 06:47, September 12, 2019 (UTC)
- Look I have already dealt with similar thing here with the page Curtis Connors (Earth-1048). When this tweet came out by Bill Rosemann regarding the one of the covers for Marvel's Spider-Man: City at War #1, this led a lot of people think that that cover was canon to the game, and I included that information right here and here. However, here User:ADour removed all of it because in the tweet it didn't explicity said that the cover was canon, and I agreed with him. This is exactly the same case as here, unless it is explicity said that Knull created the symbiote, then it should be moved somewhere else. Don't you agree? HipperMario (talk) 05:19, September 12, 2019 (UTC)
- From my limited knowledge of the series, the history currently written makes sense and I'm not sure I believe anything has to be changed or moved to the notes. Also side note please don't chastise people because they don't respond in 24hrs Copeinator123 (talk) 17:11, September 14, 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I just want to be done with this discussion. Plus I already made my points on why, in my opinion, it actually doesn't make sense. HipperMario (talk) 17:17, September 14, 2019 (UTC)
- I already have a twitter acount, but I don't really used it. Plus, I'm pretty sure that he is also gonna ignore me, but hey why don't try it?Okay, so where can I ask him, or can I link him with this page? I also wanted to say that I'm sorry if I had given you a hard time, but this is why the talk pages exist, so either way it goes it has been fun having this discussion. HipperMario (talk) 05:35, September 15, 2019 (UTC)
- Cates' Twitter page: https://twitter.com/Doncates
Stegman's Podcast's Twitter page: https://twitter.com/StegmanShow
Arawn 999 (talk) 16:13, September 15, 2019 (UTC)- There here and here. Still waiting for a reply. (Just to let you know, this is my brother's account, not mine) HipperMario (talk) 10:28, September 16, 2019 (UTC)
- I personally would have been more specific - something along the lines of "Was Venom the symbiote Knull was shown creating in Venom #4, and if not how is that scene connected to the Venom symbiote's flashback in Venom: Dark Origin #4?" - but I wish you the best of luck in being answered. Arawn 999 (talk) 13:46, September 16, 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you, this is actually the first time I talk to any creative team behind comics. HipperMario (talk) 14:29, September 16, 2019 (UTC)
- I also wanted to mentioned that, in Deadpool: Back In Black it is established that Killer Thrill already had a past with the symnbiote, so Thrill would have recognized the symbiote even when she didn't battle Deadpool. (I propably should have mentioned that earlier) And I don't think that comparing the alien with Leonard is correct, since the Leonard character didn't contradict the established lore. Your statement could be correct only when the issues involving the alien had already been published. If there issues which involve the alien and will be published, then put it on the main history. Just sayin. HipperMario (talk) 17:50, September 16, 2019 (UTC)
- Err, not sure where you're getting that implication. All that's revealed is that Killer Thrill was hired to capture the Venom symbiote by the Collector - who could have provided her with intel on it - in order to prevent a cataclysmic possible future should it remain bonded to Deadpool. Arawn 999 (talk) 19:57, September 16, 2019 (UTC)
- I also wanted to mentioned that, in Deadpool: Back In Black it is established that Killer Thrill already had a past with the symnbiote, so Thrill would have recognized the symbiote even when she didn't battle Deadpool. (I propably should have mentioned that earlier) And I don't think that comparing the alien with Leonard is correct, since the Leonard character didn't contradict the established lore. Your statement could be correct only when the issues involving the alien had already been published. If there issues which involve the alien and will be published, then put it on the main history. Just sayin. HipperMario (talk) 17:50, September 16, 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you, this is actually the first time I talk to any creative team behind comics. HipperMario (talk) 14:29, September 16, 2019 (UTC)
- I personally would have been more specific - something along the lines of "Was Venom the symbiote Knull was shown creating in Venom #4, and if not how is that scene connected to the Venom symbiote's flashback in Venom: Dark Origin #4?" - but I wish you the best of luck in being answered. Arawn 999 (talk) 13:46, September 16, 2019 (UTC)
- There here and here. Still waiting for a reply. (Just to let you know, this is my brother's account, not mine) HipperMario (talk) 10:28, September 16, 2019 (UTC)
- Cates' Twitter page: https://twitter.com/Doncates
- I already have a twitter acount, but I don't really used it. Plus, I'm pretty sure that he is also gonna ignore me, but hey why don't try it?Okay, so where can I ask him, or can I link him with this page? I also wanted to say that I'm sorry if I had given you a hard time, but this is why the talk pages exist, so either way it goes it has been fun having this discussion. HipperMario (talk) 05:35, September 15, 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I just want to be done with this discussion. Plus I already made my points on why, in my opinion, it actually doesn't make sense. HipperMario (talk) 17:17, September 14, 2019 (UTC)
How was the collector aware of the symbiote and why did he want it? Cataclysmic future? By the way, I'm not getting a reply, so most likely they ignored me. However, I want to say another thing, If Deadpool's Secret Secret Wars is considered canon, then what about Cosmic Ghost Rider Destroys Marvel History, are those events be mentioned in other articles? And about the Ancient Venom thing that you said, Funko is releasing Funko Pop with the design of the character, but named Corrupted Venom, so it looks like there a bit of a confusion regarding the name of the design.
Look. I am trying to convince you about this, but you seem to be strongminded about your statement. We both discovered that Marvel had misunderstood your question, but still refuse to change the article. Despite the fact that no one had actually said that Knull created Venom, no one. You only speculated on this, which are not allowed in wikis. The same thing goes for the alien host. He introduced as the first host, but was later replaced by Tel-Kar. We could have mentioned in the notes section that there was an alien, which Venom had bonded and claimed that it was its first host, but you speculated and wrote it as being the second host, which hadn't been mentioned nowhere, neither from the books or from the writers. Lastly, you keep stating that the removal of Deadpool stuff would create a plothole. But what about those other issues that I mentioned earlier. What I'm trying to say is that there are going to be plotholes regardles. Why can't you see that. Please, we can all work together in this. HipperMario (talk) 05:24, September 17, 2019 (UTC)
- Wow this got crazy. In Venom (Vol. 4) #4 it was also mentioned that symbiotes intentionally forgot who they really where. This isnt a continuity error, just a messy retcon. It also says this same thing on the Symbiotes page. ABF (talk) 22:07 September 17, 2019 (ETC)
- What? They didn't intentionally forgot nothing, they just lied and covered up their past, but still remembered. Venom didn't know because it was born after all of this happened. HipperMario (talk) 05:00, September 18, 2019 (UTC)
- If that was the case then Venom would be less than 1500 years old, far too young to be considered ancient (which it's been stated to be several times, both by characters like Daimon Hellstrom and itself). It would also be far too young to have been around prior to the start of the Kree-Skrull War, as stated in Venom: First Host. Arawn 999 (talk) 05:36, September 18, 2019 (UTC)
- I don't know about Daimon and the symbiote stating that it was ancient, but who said that the symbiote was captured by the Kree in the start of the Kree-Skrull War? To my knowledge, the Kree got the symbiote after some time in the War. I don't think that this ties to your speculation, since that stuff came before the creation of Knull. The writers behind First Host and Vol 4, propably didn't even know about those mentiones. If the symbiote was indeed created by Knull, then why isn't it as powerful as Grendel. Also, you seem to have dismissed my earlier statements. HipperMario (talk) 11:44, September 18, 2019 (UTC)
- Venom 1st Host took place at the end of the war, but thats not the point. The collective specifically chose to forget about it, while those who werent connected to the collective like Grendel remembered since he was trapped in ice. Also, saying that Grendel is older cus hes more powerful is wrong, since Carnage and Toxin were his offsprings and were more powerful than him. As for Knull, he was introed in Venom before 1st Host, so the writers would in fact know that, and hthe idea for him was created in 2014.ABF (talk) 23:20 September 18, 2019 (ETC)
- Again, the hive mind didn't forget nothing, actually in Silver Surfer: Black #2 the symbiotes remembered that the surfer had battled Knull. I didn't say that Grendel was more powerful cuz he was older, but because he was created by Knull himself, Grendel didn't even have a mind of its because Knull was in control of it. Also, I said that Knull and First Host came after those mentiones where the symbiote was stated to be ancient, meaning that the writers behind Knull and First Host didn't connect their stories with those statements. I hope I was clear. HipperMario (talk) 05:03, September 19, 2019 (UTC)
- So, can I move those information at the notes section, or are we still talking? HipperMario (talk) 06:05, September 21, 2019 (UTC)
- Again, the hive mind didn't forget nothing, actually in Silver Surfer: Black #2 the symbiotes remembered that the surfer had battled Knull. I didn't say that Grendel was more powerful cuz he was older, but because he was created by Knull himself, Grendel didn't even have a mind of its because Knull was in control of it. Also, I said that Knull and First Host came after those mentiones where the symbiote was stated to be ancient, meaning that the writers behind Knull and First Host didn't connect their stories with those statements. I hope I was clear. HipperMario (talk) 05:03, September 19, 2019 (UTC)
- Venom 1st Host took place at the end of the war, but thats not the point. The collective specifically chose to forget about it, while those who werent connected to the collective like Grendel remembered since he was trapped in ice. Also, saying that Grendel is older cus hes more powerful is wrong, since Carnage and Toxin were his offsprings and were more powerful than him. As for Knull, he was introed in Venom before 1st Host, so the writers would in fact know that, and hthe idea for him was created in 2014.ABF (talk) 23:20 September 18, 2019 (ETC)
- I don't know about Daimon and the symbiote stating that it was ancient, but who said that the symbiote was captured by the Kree in the start of the Kree-Skrull War? To my knowledge, the Kree got the symbiote after some time in the War. I don't think that this ties to your speculation, since that stuff came before the creation of Knull. The writers behind First Host and Vol 4, propably didn't even know about those mentiones. If the symbiote was indeed created by Knull, then why isn't it as powerful as Grendel. Also, you seem to have dismissed my earlier statements. HipperMario (talk) 11:44, September 18, 2019 (UTC)
- If that was the case then Venom would be less than 1500 years old, far too young to be considered ancient (which it's been stated to be several times, both by characters like Daimon Hellstrom and itself). It would also be far too young to have been around prior to the start of the Kree-Skrull War, as stated in Venom: First Host. Arawn 999 (talk) 05:36, September 18, 2019 (UTC)
- What? They didn't intentionally forgot nothing, they just lied and covered up their past, but still remembered. Venom didn't know because it was born after all of this happened. HipperMario (talk) 05:00, September 18, 2019 (UTC)
Cannonical issues just like the information I'm talking about. I asked the question since no one was responding. HipperMario (talk) 05:07, September 22, 2019 (UTC)
- Guys, how are we supposed to get a consensus if you all keep not replying in this discussion? HipperMario (talk) 15:24, September 23, 2019 (UTC)
- Just jumping in here to echo my fellow AdMods in that I agree Venom's orgin, as is currently written in the article, is correct.
--Nurdboy42 (talk) 06:02, September 25, 2019 (UTC)- But where is the source that states that, to my knowledge you can't just say that it is correct without proof, or no? Did any comic or writer said that this is correct? C'mon guys why can't you see this? I already made my points above, this origin is a whole speculation. Why there is no one backing me up or agreeing with me? HipperMario (talk) 17:49, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not rereading a rambling wall of text, but if you specify exactly what it is that you're confused about, then I'll endeavor to explain it to you slowly one more time. -- Annabell (talk) 06:01, September 26, 2019 (UTC)
- HipperMario (talk) 16:06, September 26, 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not rereading a rambling wall of text, but if you specify exactly what it is that you're confused about, then I'll endeavor to explain it to you slowly one more time. -- Annabell (talk) 06:01, September 26, 2019 (UTC)
- But where is the source that states that, to my knowledge you can't just say that it is correct without proof, or no? Did any comic or writer said that this is correct? C'mon guys why can't you see this? I already made my points above, this origin is a whole speculation. Why there is no one backing me up or agreeing with me? HipperMario (talk) 17:49, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
- Just jumping in here to echo my fellow AdMods in that I agree Venom's orgin, as is currently written in the article, is correct.
see here for the inclusion HipperMario (talk) 09:59, October 7, 2019 (UTC)
mysterio symbiote?[]
As we saw in the Symbiote Spider-man Comics, Venom bonded to Mysterio before being taken back my Spider-man, but the thing is, we saw Black Cat only remove a very small part of Venom itself, and that small piece would later bond to Mysterio, so wouldent it technicly be a offshoot at the time? until it got absorbed back into Venom while bonded to Spider-man? -- Sebbetebbe
- When going over possibly restructuring the Carnage symbiote's pages a month or two ago, I brought up Mysterio's offshoot and it was suggested not to create a page for it since it was ultimately absorbed back into the main symbiote an issue later and hasn't been seen since. Ascha'Vovina (talk) 22:41, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
Klyntar Name Change[]
Klyntar is not the name of the race, as such the page and all alternates should be moved to Symbiote instead Copeinator123 (talk) 22:55, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
Nighthawk (Venomized)[]
Is it safe to assume that this Venom-empowered Nighthawk would have the same powers listed for Peter Parker?
I'm working on creating OCs based off of the Squadron Supreme members and the Suicide Squad members.
Right now (why I'm asking) is I'm taking "Task Force X II (Rick Flag's Suicide Squad) and Nighthawk's Secret Squadron and making characters for this particular world.
The Animated Universe... a combination of DC's Earth-12 (JL/JLU) and Earth-16 (Young Justice) with Marvel's Earth-12041 (Avengers Assemble)
But I'm combining Rick Flag, Nighthawk, and Mirror Master for this specific OC.- The preceding unsigned comment was added by MasterWonder2407 (talk • contribs).
- You mean if Nigthhawk got the Venom symbiote after Spider-Man or instead of Spider-Man? If he got the symbiote instead of Spider-Man, it would presumably manifest in a similar way it did with Tel-Kar. If he got the symbiote after Spider-Man, it would give him the same powers Eddie Brock obtained when he first bonded to the symbiote.
--ADour (talk) 15:57, 3 September 2023 (UTC)